What would you choose?
Updating…
Christa Romig-Leavitt and her husband Paul run a ministry called Torn Curtain Arts.
Music by Greg Amburgy.
Updating…Updating…
What would you choose?
Updating…
Christa Romig-Leavitt and her husband Paul run a ministry called Torn Curtain Arts.
Music by Greg Amburgy.
I’m glad you put this together… it’s really nice to see a personal perspective on abortion that doesn’t feel intrinsically linked to a church or a politic or an ideology.
At the end, you added “choose love.” What does that mean? I would argue that those on both sides ARE choosing love… the anti-abortion demonstrator, and the pro-choice demonstrator alike. One is choosing love for the unborn, the other for the mother. Do you believe this woman’s love for her friend is more noble?
I kinda do. But I’m not sure why.
Cheers,
Justin
Good question, Justin! I left the last line intentionally vague. I would agree that both sides ARE choosing love, but would add that many times (on both sides) this “love” can be perceived more like hate than love. For example, I used to live down the street from a planned parenthood clinic. There would often be protestors out front holding photos of aborted fetuses as people drove in to the clinic. Now these people may have been doing these things out of love for the babies, but as I drove past the clinic all it was communicating to me was hate. For me, choosing love is more than just picking a side. It’s communicating that love in ways that are received lovingly. Whether we are pro-life or pro-choice, I think everyone has the option to choose love. But that’s me.
Justin, you could not be more misinformed than to think that those of us who have stood outside the killing centers(25 years) only have love for the baby. Where did you get such a notion?? The woman AND the baby have ALWAYS been our focus. You would know that if you ever stood with us as we plead with the women and offer them sanctuary, such as Pregnancy Help Centers, unwed mothers homes, and even take them into our own homes. We offer lifelong commitments to the women. We even minister to those who killed their babies, and offer biblical direction to help them overcome the wicked actions that is now causing them turmoil, maybe from wrongheaded advice from “friends” like Christa.
You really should re-watch this video with a more open heart and mind.
MxTori,
“an open mind and heart” sounds good but is not a biblical concept. “Let this mind be in you” is not an open-minded concept but a mind only filled with Christ. But the video doesn’t direct you to biblical thinking, but away from having a solid view of the issue. I would propose you read all of my comments on the video and then see the reckless philosophy proposed by the video and a lack of a Christ-centered response to the couple who want to KILL their child. One can be so open-minded that their brains fall out. God says, “the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. Howie
This is actually a Christ Centered teaching. Jesus didn’t see people as issues, he sees us as individuals. He knows our hearts and our motives. You don’t know how much that family had to wrestle with that decision. God walked with them the entire way.
Honestly, I feel like you are a little too caught up on making the situation Black and white. You need to realized that everything we go through have shades of gray. People do things for a reason, and as another human being that has been giving the gift of chose, I choose to respect whatever decision they make. That is true love.
Mx Tori,
You seem to fit the mold of those commenting who will not address the facts of the situation and the mind of Christ, which is his Word, the Bible, but instead go with “feelings” and comments disregarding the biblical admonitions. You use “God-phrases” like “God was with the couple through the whole process” but you can’t find the scripture that supports the notion that somehow God hugs on you while your killing your baby. How about this: Would you say God is there for you if you decide to abuse your three year old?? Your rational does not hold up to sound teachings from God. How do folks like you read God when he says, “If you regard iniquity in your heart HE WILL NOT HEAR YOU. Christie, in the video was not using the sign posts of scripture to help her and her friend make the righteous decision. I can’t keep responding to your kind of weak approach to dialog if you cannot see this. Howie
The God I know is with me in every step of my life. He might not like what someone does, but he still overs them, and he is still watching over them.
And again, your caught up on the fact that this family had an abortion. Can you look past that for one minuet?
Jesus call us to love. They acted out of love. Christa is acting out of love. God loves us regardless of our sins or our choices. That’s what makes his love unconditional, and I’m sure you know this. God meets you where you are at, and he works with you, as long as you are willing to trust him. Christa trusted him by loving her friends regardless of their choices and her personal beliefs. That’s all God what.
You can call my “argument” weak if you want to, I could really care less.
God Bless.
Christa, you are beautifully brave.
Erin, Christy is NOT brave, but a weak-kneed coward. Jesus called people names who tried to make God’s word impotent. Christy sat back while her friends killed their baby. Jesus said, “If you do it to the least of these you do it to me.” She killed Jesus.
Howie,
Just out of curiosity–do you believe you also killed Jesus? I mean is it a kind of “everyone killed Jesus” thing? Or is it more specific than that?
Does the U.S. armed forces get credit for killing Jesus for all the times unborn babies in Iraq have died due to screwed up infrastructure since the U.S. invasion? I’m genuinely curious if you believe that also? Or where does that “killed Jesus” thing stop?
If you failed to speak out strongly against the invasion of Iraq, does that qualify you as having killed Jesus?
All sounds a bit macabre to me.
Hello Benji, I haven’t been “listening in” on Recycle stuff for a while, so good to hear you’re still kicking. As usual, you lack the wisdom in your question to discern, and still do not get the concept of “line upon line and precept upon precept”. The line “You do it unto me” by Jesus, applies perfectly to the video of the couple who selfishly killed their preborn child because they did not want to go through an uncomfortable moment in their life and killed their baby because it was less than perfect. To compare that with the terrorist trying to wipe you off the earth and you defending yourself is careless. And your preconceived thoughts based on anti-American bias does not belong here in the context of the video. You muddy the water that can quench the thirsty by twisting concepts. Howie
Howie,
To me the really interesting thing in the Bible passage to which you allude is the way in which both groups–both the sheep and the goats–are genuinely surprised when Jesus tells them “you did this, that, and t’other” or “you didn’t do this, that, or t’other”. Do you believe there will be a 3rd group there, not mentioned by Jesus, who won’t be at all surprised–who will be saying something like “Well I already *knew* that when I was doing these things, I was doing it for you, Jesus, and I already knew those evil people over there were not doing these things for you Jesus. In fact, *that* couple right there–they murdered you in the womb, Jesus–I saw the video on RYF.”?
It’s also interesting to me that you extrapolate quite so far from the text. In the list of actions of the goats, for which they will be cast out into eternal fire, there are *only* items they *didn’t* do, no “bad” actions they *did* do–it’s a list of sins of omission, rather than commission, as it were. And it doesn’t mention anything remotely like terminating pregnancy.
Do you regularly do the things the sheep did, in this story–feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, inviting strangers into your home, and visiting those who are in hospital and prison? I must confess I haven’t done much of any of these things lately–I sort of do my little token charity with our beautiful little World Vision girl in Gaza–sending off our check every month–and this, while certainly very significant, doesn’t really seem to me to be the sort of thing Jesus was referring to. I mean *I’d* be pretty surprised if he said that nice thing to me, like he said to the sheep.
I’ve listened to what Christa had to say – several times now. What struck me about what she said is that she is choosing not to judge her friends for their choice. She is choosing to love them.
This is not a video about whether or not abortion is right or wrong. It is a story about choosing to love people where they are.
It sounds like her friends really struggled with their decision. Christa only had to choose between loving them and not loving them.
I don’t think God stopped loving this family because of their decision – and if God didn’t stop loving them – then whom am I not to love them?
Life is hard. Sometimes we are surprised by how hard it really is. I’ve discovered there is a lot more grey then black and white.
Those hard things have made me very grateful and appreciative to God for this beautiful planet and her people.
I’ve been surprised that I’m surprised by the feedback for this video. Several people have commented (via e-mail and facebook) very positively. They say the clip does a great job at showing compassion, respect and dignity. One of those was the leader of a pro-life organization. On the other hand I’ve heard a wave of opposition, most notably on youtube where the video is also posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YefBUaLbPA). A few comments that have come in the past day on youtube are:
What do you think this video is promoting? Is it promoting abortion?
It is never “choosing love” to kill a child.
If, it is never choosing love to kill a child, then I don’t think it’s love to eat a chicken sandwich, at least the chicken most of us eat. That chicken goes through a whole lot more hell than the fetus.
The point that I got, love don’t judge, is a strong one. It’s important to see the people as having needs and attending to them, but I wonder if it should stop at love. If we can sympathize, much less agree, with the couple’s choice then I feel that warrants a deeper level of introspection that should not be satisfied with, “I loved them and looked passed the situation, so no need to worry about the situation itself anymore.” I wonder if just deciding to love will lead to apathy towards greater issues. I don’t mean to understate the quality of Christa’s actions, just wondering about a next step.
This couple is very blessed to have friends who choose to love them. Jesus calls us to love, not judge. My prayer for them is that they continue to feel the love of Christ as embodied in their true friends, and the comforting healing only He can provide.
Joannie, thanks for expressing better than I can how I’ve been feeling about this.
Great vid, Craig. I have friends who are ardent (perhaps violent) supporters on both sides of this issue. The bottom line is that until we begin to see the people, rather than the ideal (no matter which ideal we choose) no progress will be made. Since Roe v. Wade, there have been liberal Presidents and conservative ones, Democrat and Republican. Every election cycle, politicians and their cronies use the issue to drive a wedge into our country and the bulk of us play along. Yet, very little has changed over the years when it comes to abortion. On the other hand, there are a million other “issues” that have moved drastically to the left or the right and affected MILLIONS of people. For many people, those issues have no priority at the ballot box, because they are so convinced that the person they’re voting for will “fix” this issue once and for all. Keep up the good work!
You asked, “What would you choose?” Maybe you were asking about the choice of abortion. I don’t think so. I think you are asking how do we respond to someone who makes the choice of abortion. Better yet, how do we respond to those who simply love others, regardless of their choices. Since when did “Christians” obtain the right to judge? I think the Bible says there is only One worthy to judge. But I haven’t read it in a while so I could be wrong.
Just because we believe we know what’s right and what’s wrong does not mean we are made stewards over others lives. The great thing about mankind is his ability to choose. And I believe man’s greatest purpose is fulfilled in choosing to love. I think Christa made a good choice.
Bravo! So encouraging to read your words Dan! This is not an easy topic to navigate, but I find such hope in your words; you get it. You get that we cannot make choices for other people – God has given us the ability to make choices (free will), and those who consider themselves followers of Jesus must respect this design. It is the greater path to choose respect of one another, i.e., LOVE.
Yes, Christa did an awesome thing in extending relationship rooted in lovingkindness to her friend.
This video does not support, or make a choice for or against abortion – it merely depicts the human side of the painful reality of life choices we all make during the course of the journey. There is no doubt that Christa’s friend(s) grieved from their decision – and Christa grieved with them – that is the definition of compassion – “to suffer with”.
If our desire is for people to begin to understand God’s heart for them, then people who name the name of Jesus as Saviour need to begin to look at the ways in which their actions communicate their faith – or send people fleeing in other directions.
Donna, Dan’s letter lacks biblical direction and right thinking. What is encouraging about it?? He doesn’t get anything, he admits. Where do you get some of your phrases like, “the greater path is to choose respect for one another”? How does that square with Jesus calling Peter Satan, or calling the religeous leaders names, or flipping over tables? I wonder if you have recreated Jesus to fit your fuzzy feelings. Christa said she denied her beliefs to keep the peace. Were those beliefs that abortion kills a baby? Or that we are to “warn those being led to the slaughter”? Or that “if you see a brother in error you go to him and correct him”? These are some of the many directives given by God for a Christian to use in “love”. Love without the meat is just fuzzy emptiness. Jesus said “they hate you because they hated me first”. Why do you think that we’re to make friends with the world? Howie
All of the times that Jesus didn’t show love were to ‘believers’ and church leaders who were leading people away from God. Jesus judged them harshly.
I am not sure that Christa’s friends were Christ-followers. She never indicated that there was NO discussion about her beliefs about abortion. She simply chose to continue to be in relationship with the couple despite their choices and NOT heap condemnation on them FOR their choices – pretty Godly reaction since Jesus died for us “while we were still sinners”. The church could use a lot more people like Christa, exhibiting the character of God to a broken world.
Rick, Where do you get the notion that Jesus didn’t show love to certain people?? Jesus is love in all of his actions. That’s what some of you who are trying to do by recycling “love” into a fuzzy feeling action, instead of its full range of character. Christa SAID she dropped her beliefs! How is that Godly character?? She says in her video she is troubled by her thoughts on dealing with this. If this video was about being friends with someone who killed her child, all that Christa stated would still be reckless. IF they were believers, then the operative word to her friends should have been “repentence”, and if not believers, then the word should have been “repentence” for starters, because “without repentence, there is NO forgiveness for sin”. And Jesus said all of this in love. To have told her friend that what is most important is what’s best for her and her baby is humanistic emptiness and not Godly counsel.
Dan, I was down in Hollywood sharing the Gospel with those walking the Blvd.
Christa’s video “choices” is reckless in several ways. But the approach to those in that situation is ALWAYS “what does the Word direct us to do and say”. If Christa’s friend is a Christ-follower, then there are certain no-brainers to follow and I would call my friend to walk in Christ. Jesus gave a clear illustration to us when the couple brought their handicapped son to Him. Jesus told them that they should have killed him before birth, right?? NO! He told them that God had a reason and purpose for that boy’s life, and it wasn’t for the “choices” you Recyclables seem to be so impressed with. God also tells us in I Corinthians 5 that if a brother chooses to walk in darkness and is not repentant, well… Dan, you couldn’t handle what He instructs us to do. If the couple were unbelievers, then Christa must give them the Gospel and still show them God’s way. Trying to save the baby is bigger than “still being friends”.
What about after the baby is gone? What do you do after a friend has had an abortion, knows you believe it is a wrong decision and wonders how you’ll treat them? Do you ostracize them for their choice? Do you repeatedly tell them they sinned? How do you, Howie, show them God’s love after that?
Dan, the intro to the “choices” video on You Tube says Christa’s friends were talking to her about what to do with the news that they have an imperfect child. I have shared with you above, the biblical direction I go when I am confronted with people like that. If the people are Followers, I share with them God’s mind on this matter. If they still kill their baby, I do as the Bible says. I challenge them to obey God’s word and repent for murder. If they do not, I may have to practice I Corinthians 5 towards them. This would be difficult, but the relationship would be strained and limited because I would not want my children to be influinced by their wrong philosophy of life. If they are unbelievers, then I would, as I have stated, walk them through the Gospel and still point them to saving their baby. My future relationship would also be limited because of their philosphy. There is direction in His word to apply “Come out from among them and be separate”. A tough verse to practice. I would not badger them every time I see them, but would love them with a careful relationship. What do you think you should do??
I think we are more similar than you realize. I don’t support abortion as a general choice. But there has been plenty of dialog for years about abortion. I’m not trying to dispute abortion or even talk about it. What I’m trying to address is the “after” actions. While I agree that Corinthians describes ways to treat those who are “immoral brothers” among us, I also think it is not black and white instructions. I think I would love that person and come along side them, provided they want the empathy. If they want my opinion, and being my friend I would think they would, I would have to honest with them. But I wouldn’t thump someone over the head with rights and wrongs. I would tell them what I believe about the bible and encourage them to that end. I guess the reason I have challenged what you (howie) have been saying is that I’ve seen people degraded by well-intentioned Christians. But Christians need the grace of God as much as anyone. And sometimes we Christians can across condescending, as if we are perfect and those around us need us. We all need Christ more than anything. And to that end, we need a relationship with Christ. I believe Christianity must require the discernment and compassion that comes from both reading the bible and being in an open relationship with Christ.
I hope I’ve answered what you asked. Sincerely, dan
Wow! What books are you reading. You’re certainly not reading the “whole counsel of God”. Dan admits he isn’t reading the Bible and wants to throw in the “judging” smokescreen. And Craig judges the protesters motives at the killing center. Both Dan and Craig judge throughout their comments because we all make judgments, all the time. God never intended for us “not to judge”. The context is hypocritical judging only. That terribly misused phrase is stated by those wanting to “recycle their faith” into something more fuzzy. I can’t help but notice you all avoid biblical direction for Christa to respond with, who thought standing with her friend as she killed her baby because it wasn’t perfect, was love. So now you want to recycle the word “love”.
The Word says “The wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy”. Christa gave her friend a “kiss of death”
Hi Howie, thank you for your comments. It’s true, I have a hard time not judging those who badger women going into abortion clinics. But, if you re-read my comment, what I actually wrote was “these people may have been doing these things out of love for the babies, but as I drove past the clinic all it was communicating to me was hate”. I think it’s possible for what one person may view as “love” to be received by another as “hate”. I can understand how you might not see the need to “make friends with the world”, but I don’t believe that verse was meant to be interpreted as “we should make enemies with the world”. Perhaps it didn’t come across very clearly in the edited version of the video, but in the raw footage Christa talks about how she wrestled with her friends over the issue. She didn’t say “go get an abortion, sounds great.” The dilemma I was trying to set up in the video was how do you respond when friends do something you disagree with? What Christa chose (and I would like to think that I would do the same) was to not end the friendship because her friends did something she disagreed with.
I understand and can appreciate your position on abortion (my guess is that most people reading this site lean towards pro-life). What I don’t think I’ve heard you say is how you would suggest people respond when they encounter friends who act contrary to that position. How have you responded when friends of yours have chosen to have an abortion? Did you end the friendship? I’m really interested in hearing more about your human interactions and not just your views about the issue.
Good final question Craig. But lets first address what I see as your unfair characterization of those in front of the killing place. You said you drove by the clinic, and now you think the people were “badgering” the women going in to kill their babies. I stand with you on the point that Christians should never badger anyone. But I am one of those people who have been standing for 25 years in front of those killing places. I have never “badgered” anyone, but have been accused of such, and have been part of a team of Christians who have saved over 3,000 babies and their parents from the ravages of the decision to kill their babies. It is so unfair to make characterizations of those of us who have risked our lives to practice the admonition of scripture to “warn those being led to the slaughter”. Another point to consider is that you, Craig, drove past the clinic, knowing that 10 to 20 couples would be going into that killing place, and it appears you did NOTHING. Where’s the love??
Craig, Where do you get the idea that this video was just about staying friends with someone who killed her baby. Christa sends mixed signals with phrases like the “situation” was more important than the issue, or it wasn’t a matter of “right or wrong”, or worst of all the line “do what is best for you and your baby”. Which baby-the womb baby or the firstborn?? Then she says she never had put a “face with this topic”. There have been 50 million faces destroyed since 1973 in America alone. Where have you been?? That’s not counting the 35 million faces of women who have destroyed their babies. Craig, you drove by those aborted baby photos. Why didn’t you see their mutilated “faces” on those banners??
God tells us in Proverbs 6 that He HATES 7 things. We start having God’s mind when we read the whole Book. Then we get to the answers.
Howie,
I read those seven things and I cannot think of one person I know who has not committed at least one of those actions. I wonder if you have committed one? Better, though, is how God responds to his people. We see destruction and anger toward those who disobeyed God in the old testament but we see the mercy and grace and compassion of a God so in love with his creation that he would allow his only son to be tortured and murdered. Why didn’t God stop those committing such terrible things? I know you know the answer. I think what many of us are saying is that, while we do not agree witn abortion, we will not cut off friendships with those who make that choice. We don’t know all the circumstances behind Christa’s situation, but we can imagine having someone close to us make a choice that we desperately disagree with and then having to choose how to treat them. How does Jesus speak, person to person, to those who are living in sin? To those making choices we believe are wrong?
By the way, why didn’t you answer Craig’s question on how you have responded in a similar situation?
Howie – Despite my assumption that you have good intentions in all that you are sharing – you are like a clanging bell to my ears.
1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Elaine, I’m disappointed you are having a hard time hearing the truth. I would not ever want to violate God’s word in my declaration of its wisdom. I find the comments applauding the “Choices” video to be a stench in God’s nostrils. These are His words, found in scripture, to people who think they are sending up “love” sacrifices to God, while denying the obedience of His word. In the video Christa admits to dumping her beliefs. You probably didn’t like Jesus calling Peter “Satan” either. Where’s the love there? That doesn’t have a sweet sound to it. Or when He flipped over tables…no sweet sound there either. I would like to know what in my “content” is incorrect or how it has been said that is not in compliance with godly dialog.
Howie, you’ve written that you are “having a hard time dialoging with recyclables”, but I don’t see that your comments reflect dialog, but rather debate. Dialog is about learning where debate is about asserting “I’m right and you’re wrong”. I really want to help create an atmosphere on Recycle Your Faith that emphasizes dialog, but that’s unlikely to happen if we don’t listen and show each other respect. It’s not just you, this is happening in both directions. It saddens me that we are unable to talk to each other without getting defensive. Since this is such a huge value for me, I’m introducing a general set of guidelines for commenting on RYF that I’m calling “Dialog, not Debate“. Hopefully these guidelines will help all of us as we try to seek a better understanding of those different than us. Howie, I really do want you to continue posting here. Honestly, I value what you have to say and think that I can learn from you, but I’d really appreciate it if you’d try to be a little more respectful in the future. I don’t expect that either of us will change our views , but I do hope that through dialog we can better understand why other people hold the views they do.
We will never know the answer to every question, but that doesn’t mean we should stop seeking the answers. Being a Christian does not mean just asking questions and dialoguing. I think it’s interesting that only Howie uses scripture and biblical principals consistently in his responses. Isn’t the Bible our guidebook? Why do we need to “dialog” about things on which scripture is clear? We don’t. We only need to share the scriptural truth in context. If a person dismisses it, then they probably don’t believe in the Word of God. Granted there are gray areas in life. But innocent blood shed and God’s response to it is not a gray area.
I would encourage those of you who have watched this video to watch the You Tube clip called “99 Balloons”. I think it gives another perspective that is more in line with biblical direction. I hope we get it right on how to deal with less than perfect babies.
I’ve seen this before, but just watched it again. Pretty incredible. The pain they must have went through for 99 days. I’ll have to go back and watch interview clips with the parents, I’d be interested to hear more about how they processed all of that. I can’t imagine having to choose between aborting and letting your son live in pain for 99 days, neither option seems “right” to me.
Craig, thanks for taking the time to watch the clip 99 balloons.
I don’t notice an attempt by those of you at Recycle to actually seek the mind of Christ on these difficult matters. From your commentors, there seems to be a philosophy to figure out things based on one’s feelings about life and to just trust that there are no right answers.
God gives much direction on the matter Christa struggles with. From David loving a handicapped nephew in the Old Testament, to Jesus telling the parents why they had a handicapped child. The 99 Balloons clip is an example of a couple who have the mind of the Jesus of the Word on this matter. I just can’t find Jesus telling Christa’s friends that they should “do what’s best for them and the baby”, which includes killing it, as Christa stated.
How we should “process’ life’s struggles is answered, but the process may involve a cross.
Howie,
Do you have a web site or blog or such?
Can you tell me about a time you’ve been really afraid?
Can you tell me about a time you’ve experienced the numinous?
I’ve been thinking a lot yesterday and today about the 99 balloons video. While I like the video and have a lot of respect for the parents, it bothers me that it doesn’t highlight any of the parent’s pain and sorrow. While focusing on the celebration of each day that Elliot lived was inspirational, it actually made the parents a little less human to me. Even Jesus wept (and he had the power to make it all god by raising lazarus from the dead). I’m not saying that I think the parents didn’t grieve over the loss of their son, but I am saying that videos like this one seem to promote Christianity like a pain relief medication.
I just watched the 99 balloons video with my wife. We have three young children of our own. When I watch that video, my eyes well up and I feel pain inside, the kind no one should have to. But at the same time, I see the love of two people that surpasses that pain. The love of parents for their children. The love that swells inside you and empties out onto your children. I know that there is pain in this life. It is unavoidable so long as we live in this world. While I personally believe that abortion is not right, what I keep dwelling on is love. We cannot control the world around us. We cannot make decisions for others. Whether we believe abortion is wrong, whether we think someone has gravely sinned, we are all responsible for our own decisions and, ultimately, must accept that things happen outside our control. I am sure that Eliot’s parents suffered. I am also sure that others have suffered from persecution brought on by “religious fanatics.” My personal stake is this. Love. Rights and wrongs only show us our humanity. Love heals the broken. Love binds up evil. Love breaks down walls. Love lasts. Love endures. Jesus said the greatest commandment, greater than honoring your parents, greater than not committing murder, is love. He said everything hangs upon love. All the law, all the prophets hang on the balance of love. And it is love which leads. It is love which sets the example. It is love which triumphs through pain. It is love that wells inside me when I sense the Holy Spirit. Not my love for him but His love for me. Not matter what you believe, I know this love to be true. I know its power. Not just to prevent tragedy but to heal the deep lacerations left from tragedy which has afflicted us. Not just to keep people on the straight and narrow but to lead them back to the path God has set for them. That love I know. That love we need more of.
amen.
Howie,
I just logged on to find the clip you’re referring to on YouTube. While I quite enjoyed it, I’m a little confused on its relevance. The song was uplifting and fun, but it seemed to be largely sung in German… and though my German is rusty, I think it was about carrying around a lot of red balloons.
Thanks for the laugh, anyway. You’ve got great taste in music!
Cheers,
Justin
Justin, Sorry you got the wrong video. I just went to You Tube and put in 99 balloons and up came the story of Eliot, a less than perfect boy born. Maybe you can put in 99 balloons Eliot. The picture is of a little boy with a tube in his nose.
This video is in every way, to me, relevant to this dialog we are having and I hope Christa watches it as well. Hope you find the video. It has over 2 million views.
I think I’ll look for the German one you saw. Sounds interesting.
Where would any of us be without grace? Christa, her friends, Howie, myself, any of us? I’ve seen the destruction aborting an unwanted pregnancy can have in the life of a woman in my own family. But this seems to be a very different sort of circumstance. This was very much a wanted child, not an inconvenient pregnancy. No parents could choose this and know with certainty in their hearts whether they chose rightly or wrongly. Those who have never faced this have no inkling of what they have and will be going through. Jesus came to heal the broken-hearted, and they will need him AND the compassion of their good and true friend Christa.
God is bigger than our imperfect choices. If we had the perfect wisdom and perfect practice of loving him then the world itself would never have been broken, we’d all still be in the garden walking with God. It is exactly this kind of circumstance that shows us that grace and only grace allows us to run to the arms of God–savior, redeemer, restorer.
beautifully said.
JJ, this couple chose to kill ther child because it was not perfect. This isn’t about grace. This is about not going to the scriptures for guidance, both on Christa’s part and her friends. I think you should look at my other obsevations in my comments and see the repentance factor is left out and that “without repentance there is No forgiveness”. There are too many violations of God’s word in Christa’s story to hide behind grace without repentance. You are right we are nowhere without grace, but that is not the whole counsel of God. You seem to pick and choose what scriptures to use for strength.
I think we do ALL pick and choose, not that we should, but we do. Actually we don’t know what was in the hearts of this couple, nor do we know the information and counsel from doctors about the pain their child might suffer. Nor their previous experiences that they would choose as they did. We also don’t know whether they have repented or not. The word repentance simply means turn–to turn from sin, to turn to God.
4 of my friends offspring were born with severe defects, two knew what to expect the others had no warning. One baby lived hours, the others lived up to several months. Though they each experienced their child’s death, their ordeals were varied. I know all suffered, but none would equate their pain to that they saw in their suffering child. None deny the blessing of the child either.
I think God chooses to keep judgement in His hands, because we aren’t capable of knowing the hearts of others. Even the most devoted can become pharisees, putting the law ahead of people.
Howie, your reaction is so different from mine to Christa’s friends.
When I watched the video I thought, wow, how awful for them to be in that situation and to have to make such a difficult decision. I feel compassion for them.
I haven’t noticed any compassion in your words about them, which makes me think that even if your approach is somewhat like God’s, it’s missing something key. Don’t the very scriptures you depend on call God the God of compassion?
(If there’s compassion I missed in what you’ve written, I apologize.)
Helen, In the written page it may be difficult to get all the elements of one’s mind. I have been for 25 years ministering to those Christa and Craig refer to in this video and comments. I have helped over 3000 couples choose life for their unwanted children and have ministered beside those who in their weakness chose to kill their child. I find those like Christa and Craig not well-versed in the Scriptures for the wisdom to deal with this problem and they don’t seem to seek godly counsel from those who have been walking down this road for decades. So please try to understand my disappointment when I come across attempts to address the abortion issue and, in my understanding, fail miserably, as the “choices” video does. I have addressed in my other comments, why I see this video as a humanistic approach without the full scope of love and truth. Christa even admits she struggles with her actions as to if she did the right thing. A baby’s life was at stake!! She should have been more ready for the Christ-centered way. She was not, as I have earlier shown from scripture.
Craig, let me share one other thought in this dialog, so you know where I am coming from. Once a week I stand in front of a killing center and try to talk folks out of this evil action. When the abortionist arrives he and I get into both dialog and debate. For one year now he and I have covered all of the issue. He even agreed and read “The Case For Christ”. He knows I do not hate him, He said so. I have expressed to him several times that I follow God’s word that says God and I hate his hands because his hands kill babies. I have passionately and compassionately challenged his wrongheaded thinking process. He and Christa have stated some of the same rationale and some of the same phrases in our dialogs. But he knows I care, even with my strong language and commitment for the truth. That goes for several of the workers in the killing center. I see them at the store or out and about and they all know I care ,but am not going to toss out my “beliefs” to talk to them.
These kinds of dialogs always make me sad as a pro-lifer, because it’s just so easy to get pro-lifers riled up about it, and we seem to lose ground when that happens. I guess what’s frustrating for pro-lifers is that we kind of want to be like William Wilberforce, who forced his peers to smell the stench of an English slave ship so that they understand the horror of slavery. To many of us, there really is something nauseating about abortion, just as slavery was nauseating. But then again, just as so many people at that time were depending on slavery for their livelihood, perhaps today our society is not well-equipped to live without abortion, and I am not eager to go tearing at the fabric of society to effect change on this issue, just as I am sure many people had grave misgivings about the Civil War. So yeah, I’m willing to love people who make that choice in this society, but only with the hope that someday future generations can look back on mine and wonder, naively, “How could they have tolerated abortion?” just as much as we sometimes naively wonder, “How could previous generations have tolerated slavery?” My prayer is that through Christ our country would gain a greater respect for human life, just as we have done in so many areas of life. I’m willing to admit that getting from where we are to where we ought to be is a very complicated issue.
Hi Jameson, thanks for your comments. I’ve never really thought of abortion like that before (comparing it to slavery). I do wonder what aspects of our culture will be the modern day version of slavery. Maybe it is abortion. Maybe it’s the war in iraq, or our lack of support as a nation in Africa. Maybe it’s how Christian’s have responded to homosexuality. The only way I know how to sort through these big problems is on a personal level, in my world of influence. As I’ve encountered women who have had abortions, the pain caused to them by Christians in response has often been greater than the abortion itself. They feel unloved and outcast, often resulting in a disassociation with the church and Jesus. This is “nauseating” to me. So I guess the “slavery” that I’m fighting is the lack of love and compassion shown by those who call themselves christ-followers. I think we can have both: pro-life and pro-love.
Craig, I hear what you are saying about how Christians often treat people they disagree with. Combining zeal with compassion in the appropriate way is a constant challenge. However, on the issue of abortion (and I do think there are many other equally important issues, such as the genocide in Darfur or the horrific poverty that is rampant in Africa) let me recommend looking into pro-life organization that are focused on reaching out to post-abortive women. Most pregnancy resource centers (look up Care Net) these days do some sort of post-abortion counseling, which focus on forgiveness and healing. Rachel’s Vineyard is a national organization that comes to mind. When you look into groups like this, you find that many pro-lifers want to love the outcast, rather than condemn. Pro-lifers are pro-love.
Jameson, I’m a little unsure as to your points and your experiences as a prolifer to support your claims. We prolifers who are out engaging our culture are gaining great ground one person at a time. I join up with teams of prolifers who have stood in the quads of college campuses all over America and are changing the hearts of thousands of students every time. When our President said recently that Christians should learn to tolerate abortion, there was an outcry that increased the ranks of the prolife movement. But it sounds like you are agreeing with Christa and the President that we should tolerate abortion, and not rip at the “fabric” of our society. Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but Wilberforce(my hero) was key to stopping slavery by combining scripture with the action called for by precisely “ripping at the humanistic fabric” that was fueling slavery. And my biggest hero and Lord, “ripped the society’s fabric” in the Temple, from the Cross. I think we prolifers only get set back from time to time because of weak attempts like “Choices” to redefine love and actions and it is such attempts that “complicate” the issue of child-killing.
Howie, I certainly do not agree with the president’s position on abortion. However, my experience with the pro-life movement has been that there is a lot of internal debate over how to present the pro-life message. You have some groups who come out with graphic images and such, and they win over a lot of people, because it is quite shocking to see what abortion really is. On the other hand, there are groups like Feminists for Life which focus on the message that “women deserve better than abortion.” This reaches a lot of people who might not respond otherwise. Also, they are addressing other issues besides abortion that are worthy of our time, issues where there is (hopefully) more common ground. Abortion is a complicated issue for people, and I think it’s always worth thinking about how we are going to relate to people when talking about it. On web sites like this one, I think you’ll find that’s the number one priority–relationship. That’s why I personally get nervous that I’m going to get too riled up and leave the false impression that all I have is zeal, and no compassion.
Jameson, yes, there is always a danger in pushing the envelope of zeal. But such can also be the case of the folks of Recycle and their attempt in “Choices” and their other videos, as they attempt, in their zeal to repackage Christianity. What Craig does, I believe, is redefine “love in relationships”, but it is actually nothing more that “sentimentalism” packaged as love. For those in the prolife groups you mention, they ALL agree with the fact that an abortion violently kills an innocent baby. This is the starting point for all other discussion on this matter. I don’t see Craig understanding that, when he attempts to compare the issues of homosexuality to slavery to abortion. Nor do the people at Recycle seem to want to discuss the starting point of all dialog to be the Scriptures, God’s Word. Instead, Craig states that the perceived response of some so-called christians to women who killed their child is WORSE than the killing of the baby?? This is a statement of reckless zeal born in sentimentalism to me. This kind of dialog is what really complicates and confuses the real issue.
Here is another video to display what happens when women/couples make the godly choice in this situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCnWIf_VJK0
What everyone here who is advocating the couple’s choice to abort their baby needs to do is change the scenario. What if the scenario was that this couple found out their 1 year old had a terrible disease of some sort? Would your position remain the same? Would you support their decision to terminate the life of their 1 year old? If not, you need to figure out what is so different between a baby in the womb and a 1 year old, such that it is good to support the choice of killing one but not the other.