Comments on: Certainty in a Box

By: jj

jj — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:25:38 +0000

Helen,
Thanks for your comments. For grins I looked up the definition of certainty and it can be that which is based on fact, or firmness of belief. When I typically use the word I’m using the latter context, which is more closely tied to a word I didn’t really know-CERTITUDE (–noun: freedom from doubt, esp. in matters of faith or opinion; certainty.) Language has both richness and shortcomings as it is influenced by both cultural (broad and local) and family usages. The context in which I’ve used “certainty” clearly communicated my “firmness of belief” within my small world. I think in the future, to more clearly communicate with the broader world I’ll think in terms of the word “certitude”.
Clarity of language helps the conversation, but we’re no closer to either an answer or a concensus. If only we could open the box–alas God’s existence cannot be proven or disproved–no factual certainty for anyone. In the absense of knowable truth, firmness of belief may be all we get in our temporal lifetimes.

By: jj

jj — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:47:38 +0000

Justin,
Nice to e-meet you, too! Actually I agree completely with your parable. Although I stand firm on the idea that truth=truth, I don’t know that I (or anyone) has a complete (dare I say) revelation of that truth. So what we are left with is a bunch of blind men trying to comprehend, define, and catalog an elephant. I put all knowledge in that category, think of what’s added to our understanding everyday (even though sometimes it negates our previous understanding).
Let’s use the metaphor of a crime/criminal investigation. In a crowd of people a man is murdered. Although many were witnesses, the accounts differ widely. Some saw a knife, others a gun. The police were mystified when poison was found in his bloodstream, along with his wounds. Though the police don’t know the answer, there is one–even if the mystery is never solved. The truth is that somebody did kill the man, a true answer exists. Also, just because everyone agrees who the killer is, and that person is tried and convicted, it is not necessarily true.
It MUCH more complex when it’s intangible–perhaps unknowable, definitely unprovable.

By: jj

jj — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:27:09 +0000

Helen,
Thanks for helping me better understand your point-of-view. I guess the only thing I might add is that many of the biblical promises/assurances (I’m thinking NT here) regard an eternal perspective and not a temporal one. Granted, MANY folks get this mixed up. I think the name-it-and-claim-it crowd took a detour somewhere.
I come from the buckle of the bible belt (Tulsa, Oklahoma). If I listened to everything coming at me from these communities/fellowships I’d have quite a jumble to sort out.
I agree with you that this life is where and when it hurts. If a church/group/preacher/Christian claims it won’t then I don’t think they are very biblically grounded. But I can say from my personal life that I’ve experienced amazing emotional healing within a wonderful Christian community/fellowship at my church. Not that it’s perfect, I’ve had some hurts there, too, and it did take time to separate the hurt from an individual and embrace the practice of Christian love within our fellowship.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:42:02 +0000

Justin,
I really like your allusion to the story of the blind men. Does anyone else think, to some extent, that this could be an accurate metaphor of several different “religions?”

By: Helen

Helen — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:39:06 +0000

Actually I think trust and certainty are different from each other, at least in this context.

To me, trust implies there is some faith involved, whereas certainty means no faith is involved because the facts can only point one way. Maybe the trust you’re referring to is a deeper quality of faith than you had before?

I like your comment about what Jesus has done in you, jj. I like many things about the changes that happened in me in my years as a Christian even though I’m not sure anymore if God exists and I believe good changes can happen in people who aren’t Christians also.

And I’m glad your faith helped you when your sister died. People who don’t believe in life after death can’t offer anything like the comfort of believing you will be reunited one day with loved ones.

By: Helen

Helen — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:30:36 +0000

Jim, I’m guessing you meant ‘available stories‘, not that Jesus was the best thing on sale last time you went shopping . (Although perhaps that’s metaphorically true)

By: Helen

Helen — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:28:26 +0000

You’re welcome, Craig!

By: Helen

Helen — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:28:10 +0000

I’m saying “I realized it’s possible to be happy without Jesus”. I’m not exactly saying “You may as well be happy without Jesus” because that would sound like I’m pushing people away from faith and that’s not something I’m interested in doing per se. I’m interested in people being kind to each other; if faith gets in the way of that maybe I’d try to push them away from it; if it doesn’t I wouldn’t.

In general I think happiness is only possible to the extent we accept that there are many things in our lives we can’t control. I think that’s true whether we believe in God or not since God cannot be controlled by humans. I’m not saying God is unaffected by humans (if God exists) but rather that they have no guarantees their prayers will be answered the way they desire (for example). And your comments about the cost of following Jesus indicate you understand Jesus’ words similarly to me.

By: Justin Masterson

Justin Masterson — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:35:41 +0000

jj,

First, I’m really glad to e-meet you. Your comments have really got me thinking; thanks for letting me join your dialogue!

Second, I don’t know if I’m allowed to post in the discussion on my own video… it’s a little like wearing a T-shirt of a band to that band’s concert… but whatever, the discussion is great, and I wanna join.

Third, and certainly more to the point, I’m interested in your belief that truth = truth, and that the word absolute is superfluous. Can you tell me more about that? I’m with you… the standing on a platform of “NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH” is just as absolute as declaring “ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS ALL THERE IS!” As Craig alluded to, it’s a common mistake in the post-modern and emerging movements… missing the important note that declaring no absolutes is, in and of itself, a declaration of truth.

Where you and I may be in disagreement is on the idea that “I just don’t think there’s a truth for one person and a different truth for someone else.” I tend to take a viewpoint that, while there may only be one central object of reality, there are countless perspectives on that same reality, and all are equally true. You may know the oft-used parable about the five blind men studying an elephant with their hands? In case not, the idea is that each man gives a different, but equally accurate, view of the animal… and none has the whole picture. The one holding the tail says, “an elephant is like a snake… long and thin and wirey.” The one holding the leg says, “an elephant is like a tree…tall, rugged, and wide.” The one holding the ear says, “an elephant is like a leaf… large, leathery, and flexible.” Etc. No man is WRONG, but no man has the whole picture.

For me, so it is with a God so big he/she/it can’t possibly be known in entirety. We each grab a part, identify that part, and try to do the best we can to understand it. And that makes our experience TRUE, if not COMPREHENSIVE. For me, the struggle comes when one blind man claims that his understanding of the elephant makes all the other NOT TRUE.

By: jim

jim — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:33:27 +0000

I didnt read all of these comments but I would open the box.

I have chosen to “place a bet” on Jesus

I do this based on a whole series of mostly subjective experiences (which BTW is how most impotant decisions are made by humans, meaning choosing to believe something that is not “rational” but rather “transrational” is no less objective)

I will not know id my bet pays off until I (and everyone else who is betting against me is DEAD) Then we will all know

Regardless- after having assessed the available “stores”. I like Jesus best of all