Thank you so much for posting the longer iteration of the interview. I feel so much more affinity for and connection with Mr. Young after hearing it. This interview is amazing, and RYF gets serious kudos for making it happen and posting it.
Jim Henderson,
You are a genius. Thank you for interviewing Paul and doing what you always do, which is listen brilliantly.
Paul,
Thank you for your honesty and authenticity. You rock.
I’m with Joe–wish I’d seen the interview before reading the book.
Craig,
It’s kind of like this–I was being shown a wee patch of something, and looking at it, it looked awfully like something else which I enormously dislike.
Then the camera zoomed way out, and I saw that the wee patch was actually just a little part of something much bigger. And the much bigger something didn’t look at all like that something else which I enormously dislike. Instead, it looked rather like something which I rather enormously like.
Yeah, it does make sense. So my next question would be do you think the small “patch” that was edited out misrepresented Paul? I try really hard to represent people well and use their comments in context, but at the same time I try to pull out portions of clips that are provocative. Tough balance, and I’m sure I don’t always get it right!
Craig, I liked the longer video much more than the short one too. The short one didn’t push my buttons like it pushed Benjamin’s but it also didn’t do much for me; whereas I found the longer one powerful and compelling.
I’m not sure I would have watched the longer video after the short one were it not for Benjamin’s a) being so enthusiastic about it b) that being so different from his reaction to the short video. In fact I didn’t realize there were two (I thought people’s links to The Paul Young Video on facebook were linking to God of the Shack until I saw Benjamin’s comments on there about The Paul Young Video)
I don’t think you misrepresented Paul in the short clip; I think it’s rather that I find someone’s story much more compelling than their opinions. The short video is opinions and the longer one is Paul’s own story. His openness in sharing his own suffering and mistakes, and his own healing, really drew me in.
I see why the religion/relationship stuff in the short video might have pushed Benjamin’s buttons. It’s a little too reminiscent of a rather simplistic way Evangelical Christians sometimes dismiss everything except their own exact version of the faith as ‘religion’, which is ‘bad’, and call what they have ‘relationship’ – which too often means “Jesus is going to bless me because we are best friends now” and doesn’t often enough mean “Jesus wants me to be following him in blessing others”. They equate religion with performance as Paul does; but the subtle difference is that Paul realizes Evangelical Christians can have as much problem with performance-based religion as anyone else. They might need saving from ‘religion’ just as much as everyone else. In the longer video his story of his life shows how this was the case in his life until a crisis hit that was so big he had to change.
Yeah, Helen, I definitely agree that story is more powerful than opinion. Unfortunately opinion was all I was able to capture in a short format with how the interview was formatted:-< Live and learn I suppose.
Craig, I wouldn’t say the short video is a mistake. Perhaps it’s more that the two videos have different strengths and different purposes. The short one could be a fine discussion starter. The long one is interesting to people who have time to watch it and are interested in peoples’ stories, perhaps especially in Paul’s backstory if they’ve read the book.
I expect each person who comes here has a unique spectrum of interests. I know from experience there’s quite a lot of overlap between what Benjamin and I are drawn to in the Christian world and we’re not. But that doesn’t mean everyone else who comes here feels the same way. So don’t read too much into having two of your commenters strongly agree
Read it again with the new eyes of understanding, I love this book and you know my story it rang so true to my live and relationship with Papa. God is Love!!!! He does care for all our needs. I knew the relational aspects when I read the book and that why I loved the book the shack. The church needs to find there Shacks and tear down the fasads and let God build our house.
Leila, I think this underlines the problem I have with the book – the primary interest of God is not my personal wellbeing. If it is, then serious questions have to be asked about why he is so concerned about me and barely concerned at all about 90% of the population of the world.
Indeed, this is part of why the interview is so refreshing. It is not simply a report of ‘how great God is’ and ‘how he sorted out all my problems’.
Hi Joe (I am not a speller)
I’m Benjamins aunt and I understand that he had the problem with the victimisation more then the healing vertues of the God head. God has to deal each of us on a level where we can be touched. My personal belief is that God 100% of my everything and he make me who I am with my short comings and He is omnipantant so he can be 100% to every ones everything as we need it.
Benjamin
I believe there is evil in this world and God still gives us free choice and when not only do I believe he is 100% there. We also reap what we generationally(not of our doing but our fore fathers) the sin of the father fall on third and fourth generations. But I also beleive that you can ber blessed for 1oo generations for those who love Him. And that is why I am going through a program called Restoring the Foundations its an intergrated aproach to healing bring all spiritual part of my well being in alignment with the truth that God has given to me. Because I want to be a blessing to my family not a curse. I have 500 year plan do you?
Wow, Leila. I could be misreading your comment, but it sounds like you are essentially saying that it’s the poor’s own fault (or their ancestors) for all the horrifying things that happen to them? Really? If that’s what you are saying, this really rubs me the wrong way. I can’t imagine God punishing someone (or letting someone suffer) for something they had had absolutely nothing to do with. Seems pretty unforgiving to me.
Well that to bad that it rubs you the wrong way. I choose to believe what it says Isaiah 61
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon ME, because the Lord has anointed ME to preach good tidings to the poor; He sent ME to heal the brocken hearted. To proclaim liberty to the captives and open the prison to those who are bound: (I feel this applies to all humanity not just poor and this is how I choose to live my life.) I also believe there are thing our generations past have messed up our line with. Yes I feel that we have to remove those things out out of our DNA if you would to change our generational futures. Sorry if this bothers you, but this is how I choose to live my Life. I choose that my hope is that my family will choose this also, but its a choice of faith.
Leila, I’m sorry to also ask questions, but I’m not sure I’m understanding. Are you saying that you (and I) are blessed because of what our ancestors did whereas an African living in poverty is condemned because of what his forefathers did?
I agree with you that Isaiah 61 is extremely powerful, particularly when Jesus read this in the temple and applied it to himself. But then I’m also scared reading Amos and James 5 because I don’t think our wealth has been a blessing from God but something we have accumulated by abusing the poor over many generations. And in that context, I’m not convinced that Isaiah 61 is really a blessing to us.
Craig, conversation is difficult to follow when the posts are nestled like this. Is there any way to arrange it differently?
you might want to understand my thought process I learn a diffrent way of healing all the hurt that have been in my life which has been passed down from my fore fathers and really screwed up my family.I beleive that are sin nature is DNA’ed in to us just like genetics. My dad has diabetis his mom,sisters and brothers all have it also.Same My mom was an addict my sister is an addict my children are addicts it passes down.
Same with incest,lying stealing. these thing are bread into us they say even a child not raised by his natural parent still will have these tendances even without their parents influence daily in their lives. their adopted family could be perfect but the sin still influences him.
As i explain to benjamin it applies to your question also.
Thank you for answering my question. I do not have a 500 year plan. I’m pretty sure I would find that extremely exhausting. I get a bit overwhelmed with the 1 day plan a lot of times.
Do you find that having a 500 year plan helps you to be more fully present in the here/now?
I’m very glad I watched this. I was aware Paul’s book came out of his own experience but I didn’t realize how much he’d been through and how deeply he needed healing. I appreciated how he shared not only what was done to him but the wrong things he did that contributed to his problems.
I love that Paul’s journey has been about becoming authentic and letting go of false shame about himself, and that’s the journey he wants to encourage other people to take. If his book helps people to do that I think that’s awesome.
I loved his comment about how shame takes away our ability to distinguish between an observation and a value judgement (his example: before healing, if his wife asked him not to wash colors with whites, because of his shame he interpreted that as her saying he was someone she never should have married). Clinical depression does the same thing.
This is an awesome interview – I hope lots of people get to see it.
For me the book was horrible, not helped by the total saturation advertising it received amongst a certain subset of evangelical Christianity. Having seen the humanity, brokenness and honesty of Paul Young, I would have given him a lot more space – though in fairness probably still wouldn’t have liked the book.
I’d have been interested to see what the majority of those who went overboard about the book thought of this interview. I think it might have shocked them.
Hi Craig: How many Pastors do you know read the book and endorsed it? How many seminary students, teachers, or professors read the book and endorsed it? I surmize, and I could be wrong, but most church leaders, seminary students, some apologists, and other Christian writers who read the book did not like it. And I say this in the context of working with local churches for the past forty years,in that most postmodern American churches have failed simply beacuse they do not build relationships. I am referring to the biblical pattern of church building as depicted by Paul in I Thessalonians 2:1-10. Hence, ‘The Shack’ hits the nerve exposing the failures of our American churches: The failure to build healing and restorative relationships as the Christ of scriptures came to do.
To be honest, Barry, many of my friends did like The Shack (many of my friends are pastors, seminary students, teachers and professors). I’m used to wildly successful Christian books (like the Purpose Driven Life) to be frowned upon by people I know, so it was a bit surprising to hear such positive reviews. I myself have not read the book, so I’m not able to comment on the book’s content, but I think I agree with what you are saying here about churches not building relationships. I’d add that I think many churches give an impression that they’d rather their members hide their questioning/sin/etc. than be authentic and real (despite what they may say about wanting authenticity). Authenticity is messy. Thanks for commenting, Barry.
That is right Craig! Most Post modern American churches are quick to build programs, mission trips, Bible studies, etc., while not lacking in their purposes, what they do mitigate is encouraging those to have a venue to freely their stories with impunity. It is much more convenient to build such programs than biblical relationship as Apostle did in I Thess 2:1-10. A good read is Hybel’s pamplet ‘Reveal’ why American churches miss the mark on ‘Making disciples.” As a result of all this, we lack mutual accountability, and our church leaders lack enforcing church discipline. I do not want to sound pejorative, just promoting dialogue.
Helen really managed to say rather well a lot of what was going on for me as well.
I could pretty much repeat word for word what Joe said.
I don’t think you misrepresented Paul at all. The reason I say so is that I had exactly the same reaction to the short clip as I did to Paul’s own book. So you could hardly be said to have misrepresented him.
Helen perfectly nailed it. The book started out working brilliantly as story, and it disastrously dissolved into a long opinion treatise. Story is just so much more compelling to me than opinion. The longer clip was story, so suddenly it was working for me. =)
Of course all opinion forms in the context of story, so … if I were a super brilliant listener, I’d manage to gently deal with my own pushed buttons and *evoke* the story behind the opinions. This is why Jim Henderson is so good at what he does–he manages this. =)
Barry–I’m really curious about you’re saying that churches don’t build relationships. What do you mean?
The answer to this is lengthy. May I suggest you do an inductive study of verses 1-10 in I Thess chapter two. The short answer is every Believer, I think, should have a Timothy, Barnabas, and an Apostle Paul. Thanks for asking the question. Another study would be: what does Matt 28:19-20 mean by ‘making disciples’? Notice, it does not say ‘converts’.
“May I suggest you do an inductive study of verses 1-10 in I Thess chapter two.”
Barry,
You made me smile. I most certainly won’t do such a study, but thank you for suggesting it =)
I love what you said about making disciples rather than converts. I like the idea of “being-a-Christian” meaning that one is trying to behave like Jesus, rather than it meaning that one prayed some relatively modern transactional prayer at some point.
Benjamin, to be fair to you, with an opinions video clip you have no way to go deeper and ask for the story behind the opinions. So you are left with no way to resolve your pushed buttons even if you wanted to.
I think I kept a wary distance from the short video, so my buttons were too far away to be pushed (I think this is my general defense in uncertain Christian situations) – so I felt fairly detached from it, although I did like his fear point. But I didn’t need defense against the long video – it naturally drew me in and I felt ‘safe’ enough in the presence of authentic story to let myself be drawn in. Or something like that.
Distancing helps me not to get too stirred up but it’s also not very satisfying. Like a drink watered down too much to taste bad but also too much to taste of much of anything, I suppose.
As a writer who has been fascinated with the phenomena of The Shack and have had the opportunity to interview Paul several times, I never tire hearing his story. It is remarkable. The transparency, the forthrightness, the absence of shame… Paul tells his story well as if it’s the first time.
But let me tell you what really rocks for me in this clip: Jim Henderson. I have seen Jim conduct many LIVE interviews from the stage at Off the Map events. They are usually short and involve audience participation. This is the first time I have seen Jim unleashed to interview one person at length all on his own. I knew you were a gifted communicator; now I see what an intuitive interviewer you are.
Way to rock it. I look forward to more Henderson interviews
Yes, I believe I understand you about the distancing thing, and the relative blandness it leads to. I’m still learning how to do that–to keep myself safe. Part of me go so used to the lack of safety that such lack felt somehow very comfortable–a comfortable old habit of sorts, perhaps like smoking might be. I’m learning how to experience both delightful savoriness *and* safety =)
You remember Robin Williams character in Patch Adams, who learns to focus his eyes just past an unsafe person, in the middle distance, which provides him with the slightly humorous illusion that the person has two heads? One of course doesn’t see much of anything doing that.
I also loved Paul’s drawing of a distinction between observations and value judgments–it’s something I’m currently learning how to separate out from Barry Kaufman and co. Extremely useful and freeing stuff.
Stories where the victim doesn’t become a perp of some sort strain the suspension of disbelief. It felt like that happened in The Shack. In this interview, my suspension remained fully intact.
Leila,
When you quote that verse from Isaiah, are you thinking about it in terms of really concrete stuff, like for instance trying to reduce the number of people who are in prison in the U.S., which currently has the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world? What do good tidings to the poor look like–does it have to do with helping see that the big concerns of the poor are met, such as clean water to drink and enough calories each day, and perhaps a place to sleep out of the rain, or having one friend?
Do you know any folks who are abjectly poor, or who are incarcerated? I can’t say I really personally know either of those. Perhaps part of why I say I’m not a Christian is that it seems like Jesus hung out with people like this–people at the bottom of the socio-economic system, whereas I never do, and I don’t really even know a single one.
How does this anointing play out for you on Tuesdays, for instance?
Sorry I have not addressed you all sooner but I’m taking care my sister who was in a roll over accident.
Benjamin to answer how 500 year plan relates to my here and now, good question it through the faith I have been given by God, that helps me in my daily things I do.Such as caring for the elderly widows/widowers, that are unable to leave there home bring a little light into ther lives which encourages me to step alittle closer to people. Which lead me in to glean food that is thrown away if people don’t pick it up and use it( its what Ruth did). Which lead me into running a food bank where I meet people who are just in alittle need to get them by which lead in running the Youth shelter ( the kids were what you call couch surfing in home that needed assitance also.) which lead me in to feeding the home less youth in our community which showed me a need for more feeding
programs in our area no one was feeding on Friday nights. so we started a community feed on fri night which brings in prositutes addicts and homeless and other that want
community.There I get to hug neck and love on these people and show the love I have recieved from the lord. And through a lot generational healing I am able to do this and who lot more. Which show my children a model of what christ would do. Hopefully through this my children will see a different side of religion the not the side that always condemns, but a religion of hope, love and accepts where ever your at not just if you my robot and do what i say. which they grew up in but know the religion of Jesus the true church.then I could have the hope of 500 yrs.of my generational lines having a relationship with Christ not just having religion
Thank you for your gracious open reply. I love all those things you are doing in your community. I wish I was more like you in that regard. I tend to talk a lot and not do much. You are on my relatively short list of safe people. You rock =). It sounds to me like you have really large amounts of hope, which it seems to me that Paul Young *also* has. Hoping is not something I’m super good at yet.
Craig,
Thank you so much for posting the longer iteration of the interview. I feel so much more affinity for and connection with Mr. Young after hearing it. This interview is amazing, and RYF gets serious kudos for making it happen and posting it.
Jim Henderson,
You are a genius. Thank you for interviewing Paul and doing what you always do, which is listen brilliantly.
Paul,
Thank you for your honesty and authenticity. You rock.
Yikes, that is one awesome interview. I wish I’d seen it before reading the book though..
Joe – Glad you enjoyed the interview! I’m curious, why do you wish you would have seen it before reading the book?
Benjamin – I’m surprised you liked this so much. Why do you think you respond to this interview so much better than the short clip?
I’m with Joe–wish I’d seen the interview before reading the book.
Craig,
It’s kind of like this–I was being shown a wee patch of something, and looking at it, it looked awfully like something else which I enormously dislike.
Then the camera zoomed way out, and I saw that the wee patch was actually just a little part of something much bigger. And the much bigger something didn’t look at all like that something else which I enormously dislike. Instead, it looked rather like something which I rather enormously like.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it does make sense. So my next question would be do you think the small “patch” that was edited out misrepresented Paul? I try really hard to represent people well and use their comments in context, but at the same time I try to pull out portions of clips that are provocative. Tough balance, and I’m sure I don’t always get it right!
Craig, I liked the longer video much more than the short one too. The short one didn’t push my buttons like it pushed Benjamin’s but it also didn’t do much for me; whereas I found the longer one powerful and compelling.
I’m not sure I would have watched the longer video after the short one were it not for Benjamin’s a) being so enthusiastic about it b) that being so different from his reaction to the short video. In fact I didn’t realize there were two (I thought people’s links to The Paul Young Video on facebook were linking to God of the Shack until I saw Benjamin’s comments on there about The Paul Young Video)
I don’t think you misrepresented Paul in the short clip; I think it’s rather that I find someone’s story much more compelling than their opinions. The short video is opinions and the longer one is Paul’s own story. His openness in sharing his own suffering and mistakes, and his own healing, really drew me in.
I see why the religion/relationship stuff in the short video might have pushed Benjamin’s buttons. It’s a little too reminiscent of a rather simplistic way Evangelical Christians sometimes dismiss everything except their own exact version of the faith as ‘religion’, which is ‘bad’, and call what they have ‘relationship’ – which too often means “Jesus is going to bless me because we are best friends now” and doesn’t often enough mean “Jesus wants me to be following him in blessing others”. They equate religion with performance as Paul does; but the subtle difference is that Paul realizes Evangelical Christians can have as much problem with performance-based religion as anyone else. They might need saving from ‘religion’ just as much as everyone else. In the longer video his story of his life shows how this was the case in his life until a crisis hit that was so big he had to change.
Yeah, Helen, I definitely agree that story is more powerful than opinion. Unfortunately opinion was all I was able to capture in a short format with how the interview was formatted:-< Live and learn I suppose.
Craig, I wouldn’t say the short video is a mistake. Perhaps it’s more that the two videos have different strengths and different purposes. The short one could be a fine discussion starter. The long one is interesting to people who have time to watch it and are interested in peoples’ stories, perhaps especially in Paul’s backstory if they’ve read the book.
I expect each person who comes here has a unique spectrum of interests. I know from experience there’s quite a lot of overlap between what Benjamin and I are drawn to in the Christian world and we’re not. But that doesn’t mean everyone else who comes here feels the same way. So don’t read too much into having two of your commenters strongly agree
Read it again with the new eyes of understanding, I love this book and you know my story it rang so true to my live and relationship with Papa. God is Love!!!! He does care for all our needs. I knew the relational aspects when I read the book and that why I loved the book the shack. The church needs to find there Shacks and tear down the fasads and let God build our house.
Leila, I think this underlines the problem I have with the book – the primary interest of God is not my personal wellbeing. If it is, then serious questions have to be asked about why he is so concerned about me and barely concerned at all about 90% of the population of the world.
Indeed, this is part of why the interview is so refreshing. It is not simply a report of ‘how great God is’ and ‘how he sorted out all my problems’.
Hi Joe (I am not a speller)
I’m Benjamins aunt and I understand that he had the problem with the victimisation more then the healing vertues of the God head. God has to deal each of us on a level where we can be touched. My personal belief is that God 100% of my everything and he make me who I am with my short comings and He is omnipantant so he can be 100% to every ones everything as we need it.
Leila,
Nice to see you hanging out over here at RYF. =)
You said of God “He is omnipantant so he can be 100% to every ones everything as we need it.”
What do you mean by that, in the context of thinking about 6 billion people, many of whom are starving to death each day?
Benjamin
I believe there is evil in this world and God still gives us free choice and when not only do I believe he is 100% there. We also reap what we generationally(not of our doing but our fore fathers) the sin of the father fall on third and fourth generations. But I also beleive that you can ber blessed for 1oo generations for those who love Him. And that is why I am going through a program called Restoring the Foundations its an intergrated aproach to healing bring all spiritual part of my well being in alignment with the truth that God has given to me. Because I want to be a blessing to my family not a curse. I have 500 year plan do you?
Wow, Leila. I could be misreading your comment, but it sounds like you are essentially saying that it’s the poor’s own fault (or their ancestors) for all the horrifying things that happen to them? Really? If that’s what you are saying, this really rubs me the wrong way. I can’t imagine God punishing someone (or letting someone suffer) for something they had had absolutely nothing to do with. Seems pretty unforgiving to me.
Well that to bad that it rubs you the wrong way. I choose to believe what it says Isaiah 61
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon ME, because the Lord has anointed ME to preach good tidings to the poor; He sent ME to heal the brocken hearted. To proclaim liberty to the captives and open the prison to those who are bound: (I feel this applies to all humanity not just poor and this is how I choose to live my life.) I also believe there are thing our generations past have messed up our line with. Yes I feel that we have to remove those things out out of our DNA if you would to change our generational futures. Sorry if this bothers you, but this is how I choose to live my Life. I choose that my hope is that my family will choose this also, but its a choice of faith.
Leila, I’m sorry to also ask questions, but I’m not sure I’m understanding. Are you saying that you (and I) are blessed because of what our ancestors did whereas an African living in poverty is condemned because of what his forefathers did?
I agree with you that Isaiah 61 is extremely powerful, particularly when Jesus read this in the temple and applied it to himself. But then I’m also scared reading Amos and James 5 because I don’t think our wealth has been a blessing from God but something we have accumulated by abusing the poor over many generations. And in that context, I’m not convinced that Isaiah 61 is really a blessing to us.
Craig, conversation is difficult to follow when the posts are nestled like this. Is there any way to arrange it differently?
you might want to understand my thought process I learn a diffrent way of healing all the hurt that have been in my life which has been passed down from my fore fathers and really screwed up my family.I beleive that are sin nature is DNA’ed in to us just like genetics. My dad has diabetis his mom,sisters and brothers all have it also.Same My mom was an addict my sister is an addict my children are addicts it passes down.
Same with incest,lying stealing. these thing are bread into us they say even a child not raised by his natural parent still will have these tendances even without their parents influence daily in their lives. their adopted family could be perfect but the sin still influences him.
As i explain to benjamin it applies to your question also.
I think what I answered Joe and Benjamin should bring more clarifaction to what I said Yes God is forgiving but we have to choose to go to him.
Leila,
Thank you for answering my question. I do not have a 500 year plan. I’m pretty sure I would find that extremely exhausting. I get a bit overwhelmed with the 1 day plan a lot of times.
Do you find that having a 500 year plan helps you to be more fully present in the here/now?
I’m very glad I watched this. I was aware Paul’s book came out of his own experience but I didn’t realize how much he’d been through and how deeply he needed healing. I appreciated how he shared not only what was done to him but the wrong things he did that contributed to his problems.
I love that Paul’s journey has been about becoming authentic and letting go of false shame about himself, and that’s the journey he wants to encourage other people to take. If his book helps people to do that I think that’s awesome.
I loved his comment about how shame takes away our ability to distinguish between an observation and a value judgement (his example: before healing, if his wife asked him not to wash colors with whites, because of his shame he interpreted that as her saying he was someone she never should have married). Clinical depression does the same thing.
This is an awesome interview – I hope lots of people get to see it.
For me the book was horrible, not helped by the total saturation advertising it received amongst a certain subset of evangelical Christianity. Having seen the humanity, brokenness and honesty of Paul Young, I would have given him a lot more space – though in fairness probably still wouldn’t have liked the book.
I’d have been interested to see what the majority of those who went overboard about the book thought of this interview. I think it might have shocked them.
Hi Craig: How many Pastors do you know read the book and endorsed it? How many seminary students, teachers, or professors read the book and endorsed it? I surmize, and I could be wrong, but most church leaders, seminary students, some apologists, and other Christian writers who read the book did not like it. And I say this in the context of working with local churches for the past forty years,in that most postmodern American churches have failed simply beacuse they do not build relationships. I am referring to the biblical pattern of church building as depicted by Paul in I Thessalonians 2:1-10. Hence, ‘The Shack’ hits the nerve exposing the failures of our American churches: The failure to build healing and restorative relationships as the Christ of scriptures came to do.
What think ye?
To be honest, Barry, many of my friends did like The Shack (many of my friends are pastors, seminary students, teachers and professors). I’m used to wildly successful Christian books (like the Purpose Driven Life) to be frowned upon by people I know, so it was a bit surprising to hear such positive reviews. I myself have not read the book, so I’m not able to comment on the book’s content, but I think I agree with what you are saying here about churches not building relationships. I’d add that I think many churches give an impression that they’d rather their members hide their questioning/sin/etc. than be authentic and real (despite what they may say about wanting authenticity). Authenticity is messy. Thanks for commenting, Barry.
That is right Craig! Most Post modern American churches are quick to build programs, mission trips, Bible studies, etc., while not lacking in their purposes, what they do mitigate is encouraging those to have a venue to freely their stories with impunity. It is much more convenient to build such programs than biblical relationship as Apostle did in I Thess 2:1-10. A good read is Hybel’s pamplet ‘Reveal’ why American churches miss the mark on ‘Making disciples.” As a result of all this, we lack mutual accountability, and our church leaders lack enforcing church discipline. I do not want to sound pejorative, just promoting dialogue.
Craig,
Helen really managed to say rather well a lot of what was going on for me as well.
I could pretty much repeat word for word what Joe said.
I don’t think you misrepresented Paul at all. The reason I say so is that I had exactly the same reaction to the short clip as I did to Paul’s own book. So you could hardly be said to have misrepresented him.
Helen perfectly nailed it. The book started out working brilliantly as story, and it disastrously dissolved into a long opinion treatise. Story is just so much more compelling to me than opinion. The longer clip was story, so suddenly it was working for me. =)
Of course all opinion forms in the context of story, so … if I were a super brilliant listener, I’d manage to gently deal with my own pushed buttons and *evoke* the story behind the opinions. This is why Jim Henderson is so good at what he does–he manages this. =)
Barry–I’m really curious about you’re saying that churches don’t build relationships. What do you mean?
The answer to this is lengthy. May I suggest you do an inductive study of verses 1-10 in I Thess chapter two. The short answer is every Believer, I think, should have a Timothy, Barnabas, and an Apostle Paul. Thanks for asking the question. Another study would be: what does Matt 28:19-20 mean by ‘making disciples’? Notice, it does not say ‘converts’.
Best,
Barry
“May I suggest you do an inductive study of verses 1-10 in I Thess chapter two.”
Barry,
You made me smile. I most certainly won’t do such a study, but thank you for suggesting it =)
I love what you said about making disciples rather than converts. I like the idea of “being-a-Christian” meaning that one is trying to behave like Jesus, rather than it meaning that one prayed some relatively modern transactional prayer at some point.
“I most certainly won’t do such a study”
Benjamin, your comment made ME smile:->
Thanks for your honesty, Benjamin!
Benjamin, to be fair to you, with an opinions video clip you have no way to go deeper and ask for the story behind the opinions. So you are left with no way to resolve your pushed buttons even if you wanted to.
I think I kept a wary distance from the short video, so my buttons were too far away to be pushed (I think this is my general defense in uncertain Christian situations) – so I felt fairly detached from it, although I did like his fear point. But I didn’t need defense against the long video – it naturally drew me in and I felt ‘safe’ enough in the presence of authentic story to let myself be drawn in. Or something like that.
Distancing helps me not to get too stirred up but it’s also not very satisfying. Like a drink watered down too much to taste bad but also too much to taste of much of anything, I suppose.
As a writer who has been fascinated with the phenomena of The Shack and have had the opportunity to interview Paul several times, I never tire hearing his story. It is remarkable. The transparency, the forthrightness, the absence of shame… Paul tells his story well as if it’s the first time.
But let me tell you what really rocks for me in this clip: Jim Henderson. I have seen Jim conduct many LIVE interviews from the stage at Off the Map events. They are usually short and involve audience participation. This is the first time I have seen Jim unleashed to interview one person at length all on his own. I knew you were a gifted communicator; now I see what an intuitive interviewer you are.
Way to rock it. I look forward to more Henderson interviews
Helen,
Yes, I believe I understand you about the distancing thing, and the relative blandness it leads to. I’m still learning how to do that–to keep myself safe. Part of me go so used to the lack of safety that such lack felt somehow very comfortable–a comfortable old habit of sorts, perhaps like smoking might be. I’m learning how to experience both delightful savoriness *and* safety =)
You remember Robin Williams character in Patch Adams, who learns to focus his eyes just past an unsafe person, in the middle distance, which provides him with the slightly humorous illusion that the person has two heads? One of course doesn’t see much of anything doing that.
I also loved Paul’s drawing of a distinction between observations and value judgments–it’s something I’m currently learning how to separate out from Barry Kaufman and co. Extremely useful and freeing stuff.
Stories where the victim doesn’t become a perp of some sort strain the suspension of disbelief. It felt like that happened in The Shack. In this interview, my suspension remained fully intact.
Leila,
When you quote that verse from Isaiah, are you thinking about it in terms of really concrete stuff, like for instance trying to reduce the number of people who are in prison in the U.S., which currently has the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world? What do good tidings to the poor look like–does it have to do with helping see that the big concerns of the poor are met, such as clean water to drink and enough calories each day, and perhaps a place to sleep out of the rain, or having one friend?
Do you know any folks who are abjectly poor, or who are incarcerated? I can’t say I really personally know either of those. Perhaps part of why I say I’m not a Christian is that it seems like Jesus hung out with people like this–people at the bottom of the socio-economic system, whereas I never do, and I don’t really even know a single one.
How does this anointing play out for you on Tuesdays, for instance?
Sorry I have not addressed you all sooner but I’m taking care my sister who was in a roll over accident.
Benjamin to answer how 500 year plan relates to my here and now, good question it through the faith I have been given by God, that helps me in my daily things I do.Such as caring for the elderly widows/widowers, that are unable to leave there home bring a little light into ther lives which encourages me to step alittle closer to people. Which lead me in to glean food that is thrown away if people don’t pick it up and use it( its what Ruth did). Which lead me into running a food bank where I meet people who are just in alittle need to get them by which lead in running the Youth shelter ( the kids were what you call couch surfing in home that needed assitance also.) which lead me in to feeding the home less youth in our community which showed me a need for more feeding
programs in our area no one was feeding on Friday nights. so we started a community feed on fri night which brings in prositutes addicts and homeless and other that want
community.There I get to hug neck and love on these people and show the love I have recieved from the lord. And through a lot generational healing I am able to do this and who lot more. Which show my children a model of what christ would do. Hopefully through this my children will see a different side of religion the not the side that always condemns, but a religion of hope, love and accepts where ever your at not just if you my robot and do what i say. which they grew up in but know the religion of Jesus the true church.then I could have the hope of 500 yrs.of my generational lines having a relationship with Christ not just having religion
Leila,
Thank you for your gracious open reply. I love all those things you are doing in your community. I wish I was more like you in that regard. I tend to talk a lot and not do much. You are on my relatively short list of safe people. You rock =). It sounds to me like you have really large amounts of hope, which it seems to me that Paul Young *also* has. Hoping is not something I’m super good at yet.