I’ve never really thought of “the peace of God that passes understanding” quite like Karin describes.
Do you think peace can come in not understanding?
Updating…
Karin Maney is the director of prayer ministry at Vineyard Community Church in Cincinnati, OH.
The key word in what Karen was saying at the end about the peace of god that passes all understanding, for me, was “trust”. It seems to involve a really huge degree of trust.
I tend to get caught up in thinking about all the really really icky horrifying things that happen to so many people around the world, and then thinking that all that means that I can’t trust “God”, because he/she is clearly untrustworthy. The idea of trust, as well as the idea of peace, only seem workable to me on the local level. Of course that is the only place any of us can live anyway, isn’t it?
I’ve come to realize I can have a lot of peace without God being involved. Bringing it to the ultimately local level, I am learning to trust myself, and to be at peace with myself. The only way I learn/work toward these things, of course, is with the help of other people. I used to think I could do the wrestling Karin referred to just between me and God. Now I know for sure that that doesn’t work for me. I can see that it never really worked for me. I do that wrestling now with/in-the-presence-of other people, and this works for me rather enormously well.
Thank you Karin for letting Craig interview you and being so open. You’re awesome =)
What I heard Karen say here is that God keeps us in the dark so that we rely on him. For some that might be comforting but it makes me uncomfortable because I see that as manipulative. I think I tend to look at this is God does not reveal everything because we can’t handle it. I view it as he’s protecting us. And being in relationship is his being a guide and helping us cope with what’s ahead. In that I can more trust and find more peace.
Sara,
I had to think about it three times before I could see the difference. It sounds like you’re saying It’s okay if God doesn’t reveal everything for our sake, but definitely not okay if she doesn’t reveal everything for her sake, and thus that you are more able to trust the latter God than the former. Am I getting that right?
Reading your comment was really helpful and interesting to me. It made me wonder to myself “To what degree am I ok with the idea of my lovely wife Megan not telling me something to protect me (that is, for my sake), and to what degree am I ok with the idea of my lovely wife Megan not telling me something to make me trust her or rely on her (that is, for her sake)? I guess the answer is I’m not ok with her not telling me something for either reason.
This led me to think that maybe a better metaphor is parents and kids. The thing is, I’m finding that Megs and I pretty much telling our 5 and 7 year old daughters anything they ever want to know is working a lot better for me, and I think for them also, than the system in which I grew up, in which lots of stuff never got told to me for my own protection.
Wow–Sara, I know I’m repeating myself, but honestly your comment made me watch the video again in a new light. thank you
Rewatching it again in this new light has helped me to re-realize and see in a slightly new way a big part of the reason I don’t call myself a Christian anymore. Karin and you both speak of “being in relationship” with God. My experience was that I *thought* I was in a “relationship” with God, but when I finally got permission to start actually asking her questions that mattered to me, she never answered at all. I mean zilch–no “I don’t know”, no “I’m not going to tell you”, no “I don’t understand the question”, no “Shut the hell up”. nothing. just nothing nothing nothing. So I kind of realized that I couldn’t be in relationship with someone who wouldn’t communicate with me. So that was that.
Maybe the people on my list are to some extent people who kind of believe it’s possible to be a Jesus follower/Christian without having to have a “relationship” with God. Hmmmmmm.
i hear ya Ben, I’ve been itching to write a book for some time now, called, “when god says no.” But i’m unable to say there’s no relationship cause i’m bloody deaf, so to speak. maybe for you it works to be a follower of sorts as you say, but i would tend to think i’m more of a stalker.. i mean i don’t really listen to the words of the master anymore.. as such.. or maybe they’ve just gone to a deeper level, or dropped completely from the playing field.. for my lack of any true appreciation.. However in my yoga I’ve learnt alot about awareness and slowing down, and this has allowed me to see something I did see akin to my relation with my now almost grown kids, and difficulty with my lovely ex- wife..
namely, you can be in a relation and not in one, but so much is dependant on what you percieve, your working understanding of that interchange.. and what you are receiving and giving to the every day of that.. but beyond that, there is an even deeper reality.. that for some it takes years, and others they never see it.. I guess that’s why I see that some can be in a different system or perception and as long as they follow what I resonate is the path of love to a certain extent.. Jesus will pull off his mask of Buddha or Pagan, or Porsche right before we get inside the gates of heaven.. he’s not so bound with Labels and Logo’s.. even though they can get ya in the doors in some places here..
it is funny to see so many here claiming not the name brand of christian anymore, but still so sincerely inquiring and diligently pursuing the Divine person in a more intimate relation with Jesus.. kudo’s.. but let’s get a backbone.. lol
Wow,Ben. I relate to the “incommunicado” portion. How can I feel peace with a relationship that seems so one-sided? Hmmm… I know God speaks to me in other ways, mostly through others’ actions, generosity, love, etc…
Ugh that sounded “Christian-y”, and that’s so not me…
I guess what I really want in my heart of hearts is for God, Jesus, whomever is available– to swoop me up in his lap ( a real one) and just hold me for a long, long time…
Tami,
Loved your “Ugh that sounded “Christian-y”, and that’s so not me” =)
Yes. I want that too. I’m so happy to have an uber amazing wife who is very often available for long long hugs whenever they are needed. =).
LOL–
I have an amazing uber-loving husband who also hugs very awesomely… I gotta say lately, though– Right now I want Jesus, in the real, with skin on, not my hubby.
What am I supposed to think when he/she doesn’t show? Don’t get me wrong here… and a warning to others as well– I HAVE PLENTY OF BACKGROUND IN CHRISTIANITY. I know all the answers to this stuff, the scripture and even the address to that little crumb. But what I want is a real, amazing encounter with God.
I’m pretty sure I could let go of wanting to understand God and the methos to the madness if I could have more of a 2-way conversation with the guy… I hope he’s hearing me… LOL
Tami
For me, much of the dialog may just be adding layers on to what Karin is speaking. While it may be great to totally communicate everything asked to your children, you still wouldn’t hand a 6 year old a chain saw and send them out to cut fire wood. Now that 6 year old might think he’s ready for that task and probably isn’t going to understand (even after hours of careful and painstalking explainations) the different between what he believes and the reality that he just isn’t ready to go cut that wood. If all else fails, you might even disconnect the power and let him try to lift the tool in the hopes that he’ll see that it’s even too heavy for him to really lift right now. Whichever route you take with the child, in the end it comes down to the fact that at some point, he just has to trust that his parent is in charge of this – has it handled. Now let’s say that this 6 year old is a strong willed child, well I’m guessing that the parent is going to make double sure that the chain saw in question is well out his/her reach so that this child doesn’t take it upon himself to cut that wood with out without the parent’s blessing. Is that manipulation? Is that negative control? I would think that most of us would NOT think so as our goal at this point would be too keep our beloved son safe from harm.
I had that type of strong willed child, who did not aways understand why I placed controls where I did. After hours of explaination (which if heard, they refused to understood) I was frequently accused of not answering the questions asked, of manipulation to hold them back in childhood – and this started around 5 years of age!
Now, I’m not saying that God controls in this fashion. What I’m saying is that I just may not understand why He doesn’t reveal to us everything I want revealed. Or, could it be that He does reveal but because it’s not the answer I want that I refuse to hear or understand? The “peace that passes all understanding” for me was when I came to that place where it just didn’t matter what God’s answer was – I was going to trust that He knows what is best. That He knows truth; He knows reality; He knows my joys, my pain; He knows my abilities; He knows how to use for good all things meant for evil; He just simply knows and I don’t.
Peggy,
Your comments made me go back to the video *again*! =).
I noticed a new phrase in the video I hadn’t noticed before. Karin says of prayer “that’s the way we gain his heart”. I’d love to know what she meant by that. Karin–are you following the comments?
Peggy, it sounds to me like in your comments above, you are saying that if we don’t experience God communicating with us when we ask her to, that the mechanics of this experience we have are more about what is going on with us than about what is going on with God. Am I hearing you correctly?
You said you came to a place where it just didn’t matter what God’s answer was, and that this was a peaceful place for you. I have recently been coming to such a peaceful place myself–a place where I’m realizing that my own happiness and peace don’t have to be predicated on anyone else’s take on things, including God’s. For me this is an amazingly and delighfully freeing realization. It creates for me internal space where I can be really curious and non-judgmental toward others, because their take on things doesn’t have to affect me.
Benjamin
I’m saying everything depends on God. That my failure to hear him clearly is not His failure – I have faith that He is with me and that He loves me and that is the peace that passes understanding.
Peggy,
thank you for answering so quickly =).
I think it must feel really nice to be so sure that God loves you and is with you. I don’t have that assurance, so I definitely don’t know what it feels like, but my intuition is that it must feel really good. Does it?
I was a bit confused when you said “Everything depends on God” and then said “My failure is not his failure”. To me it seems like if everything depends on God, then the failures must surely depend on him too. I think maybe I’m not getting what you are saying. *Does* everything depend on God? and if so, then mustn’t failure be included in the everything?
Benjamin,
Now you’re getting into deep theology and I have to tell you I’m not sure my brain power is big enough to really tackle it justly. But let me try to explain my statement. God is sovereign, completely thoroughly sovereign. There is nothing more powerful, more righteous, more perfect than He. For some reason, beyond my puny understanding, He loves us. Loves us so much that He never forces us into a relationship with Him, loves us so much He doesn’t force behaviors on us, loves us so much that He gave us the freedom to choose. When we chose poorly (in the garden of Eden – and because He is God He knew we would) He loves us so much that He made a way that in spit of our poor choices, our sins if you will, that we could still gain relationship with Him. That was was Jesus and the the redeeming power of His work on the cross. I don’t have to have my prayers answered as I would want them to be, I don’t have to always understand why sometimes He seems to be quiet, and I don’t have to understand why evil happens. Those things are beyond my understanding anyway. To know that God loves me, truly loves ME all I have to do is to look at the cross. Greater love has no man but this, that he’d lay down his life for his friends. That’s what Jesus did for me, He laid down His life so that I might have one that never ends. I get to be in relationship and enter into the Kingdom by holding onto the skirt tail of Jesus. That’s how I know He loves me.
Peggy–
Here’s where I get iffy about all of what you just said…
What if, then, there really is NO God?? What if all this is US, trying to pschologically soothe ourselves through life with trust in someone “supernatural” that does not exist? You are saying above that He doesn’t have to help you in your time of need OR want, there can be as much evil in the world as there is with no action on his part, and He doesn’t even have to talk to you?? And we’re all just peachy with that because He died on the cross? What makes me so sure the cross was such a big deal? Lots of people died on a cross back then? What makes him si different?
Again, I could spew forth all kinds of scriptures and theology on this… But at my gut level, I need some real love here… There has to be something more here.
Sometimes God seems nothing more to me than a father who has left his kid with her mother and doesn’t pay child support or come to visit… And the rest of the family is telling this kid to buck up and take it and trust dad because he really is a wonderful guy…
Forgive me for being the devil’s advocate on this one, but there needs to be more than a cognitive knowledge and some scripture sprinkled in to cover this one… There must be something real, something of substance, to bring peace of God. What can do that? Or maybe Wghom? But for me, it had better be real.
i LOVED this “Sometimes God seems nothing more to me than a father who has left his kid with her mother and doesn’t pay child support or come to visit… And the rest of the family is telling this kid to buck up and take it and trust dad because he really is a wonderful guy…” ~~ my mum actually did a very similiar thing as to my dad in my childhood .. i grew up with having this like superhero image of him.. like he was off saving the world somewhere.. and when i did find the real story from my uncle when I was almost 30, I wasn’t shocked.. i knew he couldn’t be kewl. and something deep down said if he wasn’t around, there was a deeper reason.. and he couldn’t be THAT kewl… but that faith of a super dad kept me going.. and i think i did at some point transfer that to God.. But when I lost my very kooshy job in the dot.com bust, went bankcrupt, lost my family to stupidity on mine and my ex’s part.. and then consequently got shafter by the supposed “love of my life” after that.. these abandonment issues came storming back in…. my mum said after my dad left.. i would go walke streets calling out to dad.. but she has always been a bit melodramatic..
point is.. ideology and sentiment do get us by.. but for how long? we can certainly psyche ourselves into things.. and sometimes that’s the best we can do, and that’s better than some alternatives.. I look at my 20 or so years in churchianity in a myriad of denom’s as a blessing and a curse.. but am grateful i’m an alum… and not regretful i don’t have to do alpha or spout scrips to justify anything easily…
Life is messy, God is there, He has to be, cause if he ain’t, evil surely is.. and if that’s all there is .. we’re so very very F–d. I like the way Bart puts it.. we hug cause we don’t know what else to do.. that’s pretty simple.. Generosity doesn’t take rocket science either.. but we sure make it complicated don’t we?
pleasure and contentment be yours, In the deepest Hue of love you can find right now..
Tami, I will do my best to answer your questions.
What if there is no god?
I believe there is a God. One God. The Bible is about Him. There are archeological findings that back up many of the events written about in it. The dead sea scrolls also factor in for proof of accuracy of many of the writings. Paul writes in the Romans 1:19-21 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” Creation speaks of it and the follower’s of Jesus believed it – these eye witnesses believed it so much so that they risked and lost their lives proclaiming it.
Obviously I am not communicating clearly, as I never meant that He doesn’t help or that He doesn’t answer prayers or that He doesn’t talk to us. I’m saying that my lack of ability to hear clearly or my lack of understanding or unwillingness to accept how He answers my prayers are my failings and never His. He is God and I am not. He understands and knows all things – I only see a small segment or as Paul said in I Cor 13:12 “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” I think that scripture is saying that I’m not capable of knowing everything now and what I see and what I understand is dim compared to the knowledge of God.
Yes lots of people were crucified, but only one conquered death. Only one was a perfect offering, atoning for my sins. He was innocent but died a criminals death, He was dead – yet He rose from the grave. His grace is enough for me.
We live in a fallen world. One that we humans handed to the enemy on a silver plater in the Garden of Eden – I believe that it’s God’s plan to put things right. I don’t understand it all, I simply don’t I wish I did. I wish I was eloquent enough, knowledgeable enough, charismatic enough to be able to communicate well enough so that what I mean to say is what heard……….but I’m not. But I believe because He loves us so much that He is willing to leave things a little while as they are so that all those who will turn to Him for their salvation will have the opportunity to do so.
You want something tangible and all I can only tell you is what God has done for me, tangibly done for me. He lifted a heavy addiction from me in an instant. He has either sent expected monies or stretched what little I had to cover my financial needs. He has placed people in my life at several critical times when I don’t think I would have survived without them. He has never forsaken me or forgotten me even when His answer wasn’t the answer I wanted. When I finally laid down the burden of my life, what I saw as my control, my desire to be in charge – when I laid that at His feet He gave me peace.
I don’t know where you live, but I do know there is a program offered at many churches. It’s called ALPHA. It is a safe place to ask the questions you are asking. It is a safe place to obtain some of the answers that I’m just not qualified enough to answer clearly for you. You don’t have to attend that church or be a Christian. It’s just a place to ask these type of questions.
LOL…
I have taken ALPHA, as well as taught it. It’s great for anyone who is brand new, or who does NOT have a deeper level of questioning or growth. It was designed for folks who do not have a basic undestanding of the Christian faith… That would not be me. I well understand, but want a deeper, more intimate relationship and growth– That requires gut-level honesty and questioning. ALPHA is churchy and includes Christianese, a language I have chosen to forget.
As I said, this is gut-level. I don’t want any advice, or a course, or for people to quote scripture I already know, or to hear more plaitudes. I left that all behind a few years ago when my husband was kicked out of seminary here in Denver because our Autistic child was “causing people discomfort and trouble” in our on-campus apartment complex. I have traded all that head knowledge for a 12-inch journey to my actual heart. I have very little patience or respect for simple answers any more.
Gut level.
I want peace.
I may not get peace right now.
It’s beyond my understanding.
So I’m putting it out there.
And I’m hoping for a new understanding.
Even without answers.
But always still on the journey.
Oh Tami, I sure hope I didn’t come across as “churchy” or that I offended you in any way. That was not my intention. I just feel so inadequate in regards to answering some of the comments and without really knowing where a person is in regards to this dialog I was just making a suggestion. I too hate christianese and and am not at all enamoured with religion (even though I’m sure I fall into both categories way too much of the time). I am enamoured with Jesus though and as you, am on a journey. ALPHA where I attend really can get deeper than what you described so I’m thinking each church may have a different take / different presentation with it and it’s not a bad place to start as you stated if you are just beginning to ask the questions.
The only thing that I would say is that not every action a Christian makes, not every statement, judgement, etc. comes from God. It’s been my experience that loads of it just doesn’t. I don’t understand why we christians do so much hurt to one another, just another topic that I have to chalk up to a lack of understanding on my part. I know sometimes it can be difficult to separate the one causing the pain from the One they say they represent.
Blessings to you Tami, I pray you’ll find the peace you seek.
Peggy
Peggy–
Thanks. Sometimes the question is never meant to be answered. Sometimes that is the peace that passes understanding.
Tami
Tami,
Tears sprang up for me when you mentioned your hubby getting kicked out of seminary because they said your autistic child was causing trouble.
I know what it feels like to get kicked out of a “Christian” organization in a painful horrible way.
And I work many hours each week with the most amazingly beautiful little 6 year old autistic child, who is such a treasure.
You rock for being there as mom for an autistic child. I mean rock.
Have you connected at all with that church called The Refuge which Craig did a video about on here called The Walk? It’s in Broomfield, which looks to be about 30 minutes north of Denver. They seem to be safe people.
Oh–re Alpha. I actually hang out every week or so in a pub with a group of people who call themselves “Beta”. It’s kind of kewl.
LOL Benjamin–
THAT is a great idea! The Refuge has been home for us since its beginning… Before that, actually. =0) Our family there is why I think we still love Jesus, why we still care about other people (particularly Christians), and why I feel brave enough to keep fighting the good fight or even voice my real feelings here. Without the Refuge, so many things in our family’s life that ARE right, would not be. Come visit us sometime!
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1. Kathy Escobar
2. Ray Mitsch
3. Mike Herzog
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