Are spiritual disciplines a sentiment of routine for you?
Updating…
Paul Romig-Leavitt runs a ministry called Torn Curtain Arts.
Updating…Updating…
Are spiritual disciplines a sentiment of routine for you?
Updating…
Paul Romig-Leavitt runs a ministry called Torn Curtain Arts.
Perhaps part of your (and my) thoughts on tithing are reflected in your phrase: “Giving money to the church.” We are told we are giving to God, but in reality we understand that we are giving it to the church . So, if we can’t justify professional clergy, big church buildings, etc., we try to find more intimate ways of giving to God (or on his behalf). I find myself much more inclined to give personal gifts to people in need than to an institution that may or may not be helping those kind of people.
Interesting…and refreshing. I find myself at an ambivalent place in response to the topic of giving. When I give to the church, I know that I am giving to the work of God being reflected in the faith community I choose to be in relationship with – the work of God being beyond the church, i.e., engaging and serving the human needs of the neighborhood, but also to the (collective) people who feed my soul. That said, I do not believe in formulaic – yes, not even the deeply engrained ’10% tithe’. God has moved me to give creatively to other persons and orgs whose missions reflect a value I connect with.
What Paul brings to this is a reflection of his desire to be stirred by his passions, and share his resources there – something I respect, and even suggest to those who give routinely out of “mere” (albeit helpful/needful) obligation. Giving beyond a rule opens one up to engagement of the other, and brings color, replacing the black & white former model.
And, I have to note that ‘professional clergy’ are not inherently bad – like anything else it is what you bring to a role that defines it. I’m thinking you weren’t necessarily inferring that Al, but just wanted to defend those I know who bring so much needful oversight and care to the role.
Having been released from the tyranny of the formulaic dictates of a modernist approach to spiritual formation, I value the voice of scripture, but I am not bound to routinely crack The Book to find acceptance by God – same for prayer. These elements have a place in my life, but the shame and guilt associated with their routine, prescriptive inclusion has joyfully disappeared so that I may engage God in many different and creative ways.
Wow–
Great stuff to think about. The stifling silence that comes in the Winter of my heart’s journey almost always happens when I apply “hafta’s” as opposed to “wanna’s” to principles in my life that were designed to be soulful and life-giving.
There are times when I need to push beyond what I WANT to do, though. There are places in my soul where doing something because I want to do something beyond my understanding or “wanna”, is so important because it brings me to something new and fresh and something I want to experience again…
As one of my good friends says, “just try to pretend God really is sovereign, and see what happens.” LOL, I laugh every time I say or hear it, but it’s a key exercise for me. I think God gets a little chuckle, too, pats me on the back, and we keep moving on the journey.
I really like this video and what kind of dialogue it can create. I completely associate with the first part but think that I disagree with the second. Firstly, I agree with how he describes changing his prayer. I have had a similar change in my relationship with God. In the past, my relationship, which I did still receive from, was more reverent and, in some ways, stand-offish. In the last couple years, I grew to a place where that type of communication with God became stagnant for me. I found that I just needed to have an open, honest conversation with God. More like dialogue. I realize now that the initial loss of meaning in my prayer was more like a tearing down of traditions to make way for truth.
The second part, concerning tithe, I disagree with. Better, I take a different approach to. I can honestly say that I have given tithe nearly all my life. I can also say that my perspective became “this money is not mine.” I don’t dwell on what else I could be doing with that money because of this view. I also take the perspective that I don’t give to a church or organization. I believe I am giving to God out of obedience through various routes. I heard someone tell the story of giving to an organization that ultimately abused the money it was receiving. When questioned whether the person felt cheated, that they had wasted their money, the response was, “I didn’t waste it. I didn’t give it to so-and-so, I gave it to God. What that ministry did with the money is between them and God.” For me tithing is obedience, but not burden.
I think it’s interesting that most of this video was dedicated to the idea of looking at the intentions of the disciplines so that we could view them with fresh eyes and get reinvigorated in our relationship with God, and yet the posts focus on the few seconds where Paul specifically mentions tithe. Amazing how much our relationship with money and how much time/energy/thought we put into that overshadows our reflection on other aspects of our interaction with God.
My sense is that we have been so indoctrinated in the linkage of appropriate tithing/giving = faithfulness to God, thereby an indicator of one’s ‘standing’, that we have difficulty seeing the actual point of the vid. Me included. As I have learned over the past several years, the templates some of us have lived with for a very long time are deeply engrained. Sometimes I have to remind myself, “Wait a minute – I no longer believe that!”, and can find that place of reinvigoration with God.
Good point Kande. As much as money seems to be in the center of most of our thoughts, it really isn’t the big issue. As it happens, I really resonate with all of this video, not just the giving part. I think I am finding more and more that prayer is conversation. Conversation that comes out of the level of relationship that already exists, but serves to deepen that relationship every time I can talk with God. As well, I think I am learning more about God’s character and personality from scripture. Rather than using it to prove my theology or dictate it, I think it is a glimpse into the wonder and mystery of God.
I like to talk with God in the shower… Maybe that’s metaphorical, lol.
Hmmm… Maybe that’s just one MORE reason why I should ponder God not just being a man. Had to say it! =0)
My husband will appreciate it.
Thanks for sharing, Paul. Very informative video. I really like your method of looking at the scriptures as a story…I’ll try that. I’ve always felt lost when praying, perhaps I too will learn to cry out to Him in time. Peace
OOOO – just read this great article on OOZE about tithing – check it out here http://networkedblogs.com/p13617527
Is it a gift if I give out of obligation rather than the overflow of my heart – my love for God and my neighbor?
And something else that is working on me – that seems maybe to fit here also.
Consider this when we as citizens pay our taxes, we no longer engage in our communities quite the same – we pay our public servants to take care of “those” things and “those” people.
Which then led me to wonder if when we “tithe” because we feel obligated to – do we become dis-engaged in the work that God has called us to – and expect the “church” – professional Christians – to take care of “those” things and “those people”?
I don’t have an answer – but it does feel like that happens in churches. It is the “pastor’s job” to help those people…
What has been your experience?
Thanks Elaine! Excellent article on Ooze, and excellent comments. I think you are right on the money (get it!?) about disengaging from things when we ‘give to the church’. Giving directly to people and projects helps us get involved in finding out about the needs, assessing what we can do, and doing it. It keeps us involved because we totally have a vested interest because it was ‘our’ money.
Both the Ooze article and your comments again raise a question in my mind–”Why is so much of the typical church budget spent on professional clergy?” And another large percentage on the building. I’m not necessarily advocating tossing out all pastors and meeting under a tree, but it certainly would release a LOT of $$ to help alleviate the pain of poverty. And I think it is a lot closer to what Jesus did and would do.
Al – I’m starting to think that tree idea might be a good thing.
thanks for the suggestion. A majestic tree is as beautiful as any cathedral and look how it contributes to the community and the earth.
Based on my experience in A Small Group these past 6 years, I have to say – getting rid of the professionals and experts – has enabled us to discover the experts in our midst. It has increased our capacity to have complex thoughts and to call forth each other’s gifts and talents.
What if we (church or neighborhood community) believed that we already have everything we need to be successful? What would shift in our engagement, ownership, and commitment? (Oh, isn’t that what Jesus told us?)
BTW – I’ve heard the definition of an expert is anyone who lives more than 50 miles from where we live.
[did I go too far off topic here? sorry]