I met Chad for the first time last week in Boise. Great guy, I really enjoyed chatting with him. About a year and a half ago Chad joined the ranks of the church alumni. Once a pastor at a large church, but he no longer sees value in church structures like he used to. Now he is focusing on being the Church instead of attending one. Chad is not alone.
I wonder, how many of you regularly attend church?
If you go to church, what’s keeps you coming back? If you don’t go to church, why not?
How important is church in your faith?
Chad Estes has a blog called Captain’s Blog. The blog’s tagline is “A journey from fear to love, from rules to relationship, and from religion to freedom.”
I know each of us have had different church experiences, but I can totally relate to what Chad says. I think that often the institution (and its supporters) assume that because people are gathering together, singing, hearing sermons, that worship, teaching, and community are happening. In truth, the opposite may be happening, and people don’t realize what they are missing. Instead of worship, it may be only nice music, but no heart connection with God. Instead of teaching and learning, it may be only a bit of fluff, or (even worse) some unChrist-like diatribe against part of society. Instead of community, it may only be 60 minutes in the same room with people you don’t feel comfortable with and don’t really know.
I have found that my regular connections with people outside of a church setting are meeting all of those needs better than church did, and giving me more opportunities to be the church. Perhaps I’ll find myself in an organized church setting again, perhaps I’ll create something somewhat in the same concept. Perhaps not.
i actually still attend church (the bridge christian church in portland, or). the reason i attend is because the focus isn’t on being a “successful” church according to most church’s standards. we aren’t seeking huge numbers, but wouldn’t scoff if more people came. we have social justice, fellowship and worship…the word of god is given and people are living life together, as a community. perfection? no. but it’s not expected. you will find very real, sometimes raw, people who are seeking to find truth. i had stopped going to church for a few years — a church alumni, if you will. i was invited to the bridge, by friends and skeptically, i went. i found jesus had been rescued from religion and freedom from legalism. it works for me and i can’t imagine NOT being at the bridge and a part of its community.
Love this conversation. The answer to ‘why am I in church’ is that I desire to be in community with others who are on a journey of discovering what it is to live as a follower of Jesus in this age, in a way that is genuine, allows me to live with the poverty of my soul, but also the extension of grace to others in the world in need of hope. I decidedly do not attend church because God requires it or that I believe it is necessary for membership in the club or to validate my beliefs.
I think, for me, I appreciate the structured corporate environment simply because I am naturally more of an inverted person. I only connect with people when there’s a purpose, a reason. Otherwise, I’m naturally a homebody. Sundays and Discipleship Groups and other scheduled times give me a sense of purpose, of being part of something larger than myself. I need to schedule regular times to get together with people and have them pull me out of my own head (or pull my head out of my…ahem).
But I also have learned it is important not to judge others if they don’t show up on Sunday. If I’m really concerned about their walk, where they are, I can do a simple thing — pick up a phone, stop by their house, write them, etc. For me, that’s just as purpose driven. I want to connect, I want to be in fellowship with that person, and see what’s up.
So, for me, the structured environment is about being amongst people, being sensitive to who I might need to speak with or pray for, and, truthfully, I prefer live teaching to words on a page or video on the web.
As long as one remains open to words from others, and keeps out of their own head, let them pursue fellowship in the Lord however it works best for them.
Brandon
I think Chad’s points are valid ones and, depending on how you define “church”, it is possible that even the events he is describing are his church. I think it’s also important to realize that not everyone can or will have a dynamic spiritual journey without some amount of structure. It’s kind of like physical fitness. Is it possible to stay in shape without a gym membership and a trainer? Absolutely! However, for some people (perhaps even MOST people) the best way to stay in shape is to make a commitment to showing up at a specific time to a specific place, interacting with certain people and engaging in a set of activities designed to accomplish a set of goals.
The bigger question, I think, is why do we feel like we have to choose the “institutional” route OR the method Chad describes? Why not both? Why not use a weekly gathering as a point of connection, but the other 167 hours each week as our opportunity to be the church? If Chad and his family are living their lives the way he portrays in the video (and they continue to do so) then kudos to them!
There is a cynical, sarcastic part of me, however, that wonders if Chad has eschewed all regular institutionalized gatherings (kids soccer practice, Monday Night Football, poker night, etc.) or just the ones that cause him to be around people he doesn’t necessarily like and challenge him to do things he doesn’t necessarily want to do.
It’s easy to say “The Church sucks, so I’m leaving!” Much harder to take action and say “The Church sucks, so I’m going to jump in and help make it better.”
It only takes 2 or more to gather, and YES, we are supposed to… Seriously, folks don’t need leaders with a seminary education– I’ve been at seminary, and honestly, it can make future leaders pretty proud of themselves and reinforce this institutional, corporate model of the Church. Seminary can (but not always I understand) completely derail an otherwise called minister and make them Bible-educated, oblivious, nice, jerks.
We all need to have places and ways to grow… “graduate.” We never graduate from needing eachother, but we certainly have different levels of needs at different times of our lives. I like to pretend sometimes that God really is sovereign, lol… and that he will let me choose the right spots at the right times, and it doesn’t include guilt over not doing what everyone else is doing.
I love corporate worship, I love car singing worship, I love Albertson’s fried chicken at the Joshua Station worship, making coffee at the Refuge worship, and sometimes I even give my kids a skillfull operetic rendition of “God gave Us An Awesome Morning, Yeh, a New Day, So Get Your Butts Outta Bed” worship… I’m sure Jesus would do the same– I bet HE gave me the idea, because it works like a charm!
The most wasteful way for the Church to use its resources is to organize a bunch of stuff that impresses people and only ever goes skin deep, and of course only for the people who “attend” there— I could join the local VFW or Kiwanis Club instead and have a neat time and have a canned food drive.
People NEED people at the very core of our being–It’s a need. The Church need eachother in community! The World needs us, too, and if we can do it without being all churchy, all the better. With all our resources and connections, the Church could EASILY put social services out of business, and should– But that’s using the “S” word, so I’ll get on that soapbox another day, hehe.
The Church is ultimately God’s baby, and I’m usually pretty confident things will go His way at the end of the day– And I get the coolest opportunities all the time to be part of it. So Exciting. =0)
Tami
Tami,
I *love* your idea of operatic renditions of “God gave us an awesome morning, Yeh, a new day, so get your butts outta bed”. That rocks. I’m totally gonna try that on my kids, and see how it works =). Thank you for sharing it.
Benjamin—-
I’m going to impart the most sacred aspect of operatic morning vocalization: Do it loudly, with confidence and vigor. Sometimes cold water helps, but nothing can replace your loud. :0)
Great video. So true. I left my pastoral role ten years ago. I am a simple organic church coach/church planter. God meets people where they are, and it is not about bricks and mortar and stained glass windows, or about professional clergy, or programs. It is about sharing God’s life with others, and seeing Him in all avenues and aspects of our daily living together in shared community. A truly great video! Kudos!
I agree 100% with Chad and refuse to refer to the brick and mortar and stained glass as a church. It is a building. People are the church. Most of what I found in buildings was manipulation and control. I’ve never understood the term “worship leader”. How does one lead another to worship. It is an act of presenting my body to God, which he has everyday, 24/7. I also don’t understand the people who say, they go to hear “the Word”. Scripture says the Word, became FLESH, and and that Word lives in me.
People are all on a different journey. I was once wrapped up in all things religion too, and didn’t get out till it was time.
Thanks for sharing this video.
“There’s this feeling with people who are in institutional churches that if we aren’t all meeting at the same place [etc.] …. that you’ll get lost. I have found just the opposite–there are a whole lot of people that are not participating in the traditional church structures that I grew up in that are very much following Jesus, plugged into the kingdom, ministering with their lives, generous with their money, in community with each other without the corporate structure”
Okay, this is probably just me nitpicking, but Chad, you seem to be (perhaps inadvertently) lending credence to the idea that people who *aren’t* following Jesus (i.e. me and at least 4 billion other people) are “lost”. Did you mean to say that, or am I totally mishearing you? If so, what do you mean by “lost” here? Do you feel like you would be lost if you stopped following Jesus? Why or why not?
“I don’t feel the need to have anybody do what it is that I am doing”
I *loved* that you said that. I recently learned that I don’t have to feel what other people feel, and I don’t have to think what other people think, and it’s been enormously freeing for me, and made me a kinder person.
One of the problems I see with institutional church is a wall of separation. Why must churches replicate everything and put their own ‘Christian’ label on it? If your fellowship has a heart for the hungry, go to the local food bank and donate (time, food, money). If God has called you to the homeless, go to the local shelter. By creating your own programs, you drive non-believers away as if they aren’t good enough. And Christians wonder why there is no God in the world…It’s because the church has given it away to create their own.
I asked myself, “What does the church provide me that I cannot?” I found that everything I can get from traditional church, I can find through my own initiative: worship, teaching, ministry, giving, and even fellowship with other believers. I could find God every day in my life and with those whom I have relationship and community more than once a week.
This reality hit hard eight months ago when my wife and I had our first child. I thought, “How is he going to know about Jesus without Sunday School, Easter cantatas, and flannel-graphs?” Silly, but without the church the responsibility of becoming the priest of my home seemed thrust upon me. I wouldn’t have changed that moment for anything.
Intentionally seeking God on our own has been frightening and hugely satisfying, and even difficult to motivate at the beginning. I haven’t ruled institutional church out for good, but for now this is the journey God has for my family. For us, it is certainly more authentic and strengthening to our faith.
There are days that when I remind my self to ask what can I do for the people at church and not what the church does for me then I get head straight. I do lots of the outside of church things and most of my spiritual growth happened there and not in church. Still church feels like home.
To each his or her own right? There have been times in my life where I went and times when I didn’t. I had a really bad time at church recently and actually heard God telling me ‘Hey I tried to stop you this morning, I knew this wouldn’t be good for you’. Right here, right now, I have a good church home and family. We are good for each other, it’s a relationship. I’ll be moving out of state soon and finding a new church home. If I can’t find one that works for me that’s ok too. My relationship with God isn’t because of church or dependent on it, but I’ve found it’s usually enhanced by it. With my church family that I have now I look forward to spending Sunday mornings with them. It’s Monday night and I actually just got back from church from a book discussion that I led. I’m laughing in my head as I type thinking about how ‘churchy’ I sound. Haha, I’m actually not and just tonight had people telling me that they were sad to see me move but happy to have met someone ‘obsessed with following Jesus’ That’s what I mean, it’s a give and take with me and church. A relationship. Good video, got me thinking again!
Hi Adam,
You bring up some good questions about my life. The video, as intended to be a discussion starter, does not get to fill in the details of my journey. Certainly there are aspects to this life that require structure, but I’ve found my life overly influenced by the corporate structure-where things, profits, tasks and success take preference over relational organisms. I’m quite happy to pursue community as the Church with Jesus as the head of the body and the rest of us making up the connected parts. There is good structure there!
As for your last comment about “The Church sucks, so I’m leaving.” My 14 year old son read the statement and said, “Wow, he has no idea does he? It is so much easier to stay in the same system, especially since it was all we ever knew. It took us so much more courage to be brave enough to leave.” Then he hugged me, told me goodnight and headed to bed. He doesn’t experience me as a quitter, Adam, and he has one of the best views in the arena. That is important to me.
I also know that if certain situations hadn’t of arrived, I would still be in the same place, trying desperately to please and perform. I acknowledge that this journey I’m on is because of grace and that causes me to be very, very grateful.
Benjamin,
Thank you for your comments and the kind way you gave me feedback. Although the context of the interview was about experiencing Christian community inside and outside an institutional structure, I can see how you came to the conclusion you did about my statement. The truth is I can’t speak for anyone else’s journey- just mine. I know that for me, I would be lost without my relationship with Jesus. I just can’t understand life outside of being created, and that, for love.
I am learning to respect that others have different belief systems than I do. And I am finding it very freeing not being under the pressure to convert anyone to my point of view. The main reason I’ve been able to let go is that I’m convinced God is desperately in love with his kids and that he has done, and will continue to do, everything it takes to let them know. How he wins hearts isn’t through fear, pressure, or intimidation, it’s through love, and that is definitely the way I want to live too.
Chad,
I loved your response. I am also finding it very freeing not to be under pressure to convert anyone to my point of view. It *rocks*. That’s how I want to live too–loving others rather than trying to change them (I’m getting there =).
Thanks Chad for sharing this.
Part of this whole church discussion revolves around whether or not we have the faith to trust God with each other’s journey’s. I think Chad does a great job in explaining how he has found life outside of church without condemning where others are coming from. We are walking a line where Chad shows another way forward, but that doesn’t mean others need to feel pressure from him. It can be jarring to run into someone who believes or acts in ways different from your own, but ultimately I think the body of Christ is honored when we have discussions like this that help us reexamine why we do what we do.
In a broad sense, I think relationships have to come first, and that God works more through relationships than an organization. The differences will come in how organized we make our relationships.
Chad,
I’m curious did you experience enormous pressure, warnings of dire danger, etc. etc. from the pastor/leadership at your last church when they found out about what you were doing? Or what was their reaction?
Hi Benjamin,
Any discussion about the circumstances around our leaving that church would best be handled outside of this conversation string. It is a great question, but I don’t want to steer away from the general topic of what church attendance means by getting too bogged down in my story. Feel free to email me about this at captain.estes @ gmail.com
I will say this, the expectation from the leadership was that we would find another similar type of ministry involvement to participate with. I think there was surprise and disappointment that we didn’t do so.
Chad,
I read the thoughts of you and the following comments. Through most of your jurneys I see the reference to “I”, but not the reference to Jesus is leading me into this way of life. My question is do you know that Jesus is leading you into this direction? Our reference is always the Word of God. When we are following Jesus we know that we are on the right path. God’s Word is always our rock to stand on. Im my life Jesus has shown me that it is our jurney Jesus and Mine. I can do nothing with out Him.
I’m not sure I understand your question, Howard. If you are asking if I heard an audible voice telling me to leave the institutionalized church, the answer would be no. As I mentioned in the interview I see God showing up both there and outside of those parameters. If you are asking me if I am connecting with Jesus on this path, the answer would be definitely yes. The last 16 months have been a growth period for me that is marked by a new understanding of what it means to be dependent upon Jesus. If you are asking me if I think my path lines up biblically with what it means to be an active member of the Body of Christ, I do.
Chad,
The Holy Spirit lead us into all truth, when we are being lead by the Holy Spirit we are following the will of God. The Word is always our testing point to know what we are doing is in alinement with Gods will. That is why we have the writen Word to let us know what God expects of us. The more we walk in the Holy Spirit the more we know every second of the day we are walking in His truth. Sometimes Jesus talks with us in that still, peacefull voice in our heart. Some times He talks with us through other people. The events that happen is our life is God talking to us. He is aways at work in our life bringing us near to Him. The question was for you to reflect on God to know.
A comment to Howard. The “Word” became flesh and IS Jesus. He lives in us.
Susan,
How does Jesus live in you?
Through the Spirit.
I am amazed at how much I identify with this. For the past five or six years, our “attendance” at church has been minimized. More than anything, it wasn’t done on purpose but because of the job I took six years ago (I now work a swingshift, 28 day rotating cycle). Now, I look back and see that we needed to be removed a little bit to re-evaluate some unchecked beliefs, things not necessarily rooted in truth. In fact, I have found that God has been doing this over the past few years, breaking down some things that weren’t based in truth. Before I started this job, we knew there were these kinds of things but we hadn’t really stopped to do any gut checks. Now, we probably attend once, maybe twice a month but our involvement no longer extends past that. But now, I would also say we do more on our own to show the love of God to others. The thing is, for me right now, I would still say that organized “church” is necessary on some level. Its just that I feel it needs better definition, or newer definition. I have had some ideas of what that might look like and, funny enough, some of them are based on the Mormon church structure.
Dan,
tell us more about that. What’s your newer/better definition for organized church?
Maybe “better” is not the right word. Let’s just go with “different” for now. And I cannot take the credit. As I said, my ideas come from various sources mixed with my own. In fact, one of the key ideas is a collaboration of something Craig shared with me and how the Mormon church operates.
The idea is unpaid staff. Unpaid leadership. Right now, a huge portion of the church funds goes to the staff, maybe upwards of fifty percent. In the words of Craig, “Think about all that could be done with that money.” And to tag onto that idea, in the Mormon church, local congregations are led by bishops who have full time jobs outside the church. They are also only in their position for a certain period of time. What if you modified this idea to look like this:
A local church is administered by several different men or women or couples in equal roles of leadership. All contribute to the overall teaching or ministry, however you might phrase it, and decisions are made by the group, not one individual. And all hold full time positions outside the church. They are unpaid in the traditional sense.
Well, I would share more but my two year old is asking for a bite. Later
Susan,
I don’t understand. What does that look or feel like on Friday mornings?
Benjamin,
It looks like normal life. Look in the mirror.
Susan,
do you mean normal as in “average”? If so, across what population are you averaging? If not, what do you mean?
Jesus doesn’t live in me, so I don’t understand how looking in the mirror will help me understand. What do you mean?
I expressly think normal is more like a median as opposed to the mean or average… Hoy, I gotta get out of this stats class.
Tami :0)
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I’m saying that Jesus living in me is very normal. I am in Him and He is in me. It doesn’t look different from everyday life. I just have faith that He is leading and guiding me.
If you don’t have the spirit living in you, you are unable to understand spiritual things, so that is why you are having difficulty understanding what I am saying.
2 Corinthians 2:14 says, The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
That’s interesting. I suppose I don’t really think of “spiritual things” as being restricted based on a set of beliefs, even that scripture verse doesn’t say that you have to “believe”, it just says “accept the things that come from the Spirit of God”.
Benjamin – do you feel that you have some spiritual awareness despite your lack of belief or would you not consider yourself spiritual?
Susan,
thanks for trying to explain. I think you may be right–that I was asking for an explanation of something which I’m not likely to come to understand. I think I tend to want to try to break down the metaphors and see what is behind them, and perhaps some metaphors are in some sense the closest we can get to whatever reality we are trying to describe.
Do you find that this having Jesus living in you in a normal-every-day-life sense leads to you actually doing any of the somewhat crazy things that Jesus said to do?
Craig,
You always ask hard (but good!) questions, which I am then forced to answer with more questions =). What is spiritual awareness?
I don’t know why I ask you questions, Benjamin. I should know by now that you’re just going to respond with another question! I presume that back in your christian days you had experiences/feelings that you attributed to God. I was wondering if you still had those experiences/feelings and if so how do you respond to those experiences now? Do you attribute them to a higher power, to coincidence, fate, karma or maybe something that’s just unexplainable? I’ve heard people say that they are “spiritual but not religious” and I was wondering if you’d describe yourself that way too?
Craig,
yes, it’s true that back in my Christian days I had thoughts/feelings/experiences that I attributed to God.
I wouldn’t describe myself as having such feelings/experiences now. I guess I’ve become somewhat … naturalistic I think is the word. It’s not that I would deny, necessarily, the existence or operation of an unseen realm, or of other intelligent beings outside ourselves, and so forth. It’s more that I would see such things now as all being part of one larger order. I’d be more curious toward myself, now, if I thought I were feeling/experiencing such things. Before I would have seen it as separate from myself, and now I wouldn’t. There’s a rather muddled not-super-thought-out-attempt at answering your question =)
I wouldn’t describe myself as spiritual but not religious. But I wouldn’t *not* describe myself that way either. I’d instead ask–what do you mean by “spiritual?
Do you have experiences/feelings like that, which you describe as “spiritual”?
Craig, my brain is melting as I read that question… over and over again… ;0)
Wow, that’s a good question for me to ask myself as well.
Benjamin?? Can’t wait to read your response.
Benjamin,
I’m not sure what is a ‘crazy’ thing that you think Jesus said to do?
I’m not in the habit of ‘doing’ anything other than living. The bottom line of anything Jesus said (to me) is to love. He does bring opportunities across my path, to help others. That’s about it.
Susan,
thanks for asking! =)
the sort of crazy things I was talking about were things like to give to whoever asks from us, and never to refuse to lend to the one who asks to borrow, and to approach our enemies with hope rather than fear or anger. That’s just a couple. These are among the things Jesus said which would prohibit me, even if I *were* wanting to follow him, from actually doing so.
Although I do pick up hitchhikers =)
Benjamin!
You mean there are people out here who follow Christ who do those sorts of crazy things?? SHAWWWWW! Really?
LOL, I thought it was just my wackadoo Refuge frenz and all their wackadoo other frenz…
Pretty scary to think about, really. But I promise it’s as fun as jumping into a pool full of jello!
Omagosh… It’s even more fun than picking up hitchhikers, I promise… =0)
Benjamin,
I don’t know what you were involved in, but I suggest you read The Misunderstood God, by Darrin Hufford.
Susan,
Why do you suggest I read Darrin’s book?
And I also suggest reading: Church Signs
It’s a coffee table sort of book. =0)
Oh, and so you can make ur own church signs for posterity:
http://www.says-it.com/churchsigns/
Benjamin,
I think it will answer your questions.
Susan,
That’s really interesting. What questions of mine do you think it will answer?
Benjamin,
All of your questions. Are you afraid to give it a try?
Susan,
That’s fascinating. Do I understand you to be saying that you think reading this one book would answer all of my questions?
Has it answered all of your questions?
I am not afraid. I wonder why you asked if I was afraid. Were you afraid?
I like to think/hope that my questions are becoming increasingly specific and decreasingly general. So for interest I’d rather ask a specific person what they were doing at Christmas time last year, and how they felt about it, and who was there, or what they were afraid about, or what they were hopeful about, than I would to ask the general sort of question which might be considered answerable by a book, like “What is the real meaning of Christmas?”. I decreasingly find generalized answers to these sorts of questions viable or meaningful =). If I read Darrin’s book, it would be because I was curious about his specific story and understanding of things, which at this point I’m not.
Was Darrin’s book super helpful for you? If so, how?
So, I love your point and your ideas. But I feel that what you speak of should be how we ALL live as followers and disciples of Jesus. We try to live like Jesus, covered in his grace and love. I don’t think Church is a bad thing though…there is such power in community…for followers to thrive and heal together. I love how you say you live, and know that to a different extent, I try to live in the same fashion…and my church is behind me. In church there should be organic, spiritual community, that edifies and stretches each participant. So bravo for making such a radical change to keep your relationship with Jesus real, but know that the Church should be a place where Jesus is alive and fresh and dynamic and anything but stale. Where lovers can congregate and share life.
Benjamin,
I just perceive fear in all of your questions, and e-mails, and don’t ask me why. It’s just what I hear from you.
Darin’s book was refreshing, and confirming to me. Clearing away any man made religious ideas that anyone might have learned about God while calling themselves a christian, or being involved in a “church.” I didn’t have any questions when I read it. Yes, I am saying that I don’t have any questions, at least not in regard to God. If there is something I need to know, He will show me through another person, or life circumstance. Since by your own words, you are not “curious” or intersted in “understanding things,” why do you ask so many questions?
Susan,
You said “don’t ask me why”. Ok, I won’t =).
I’m glad reading Darrin’s book was such a positive experience for you. I love it when I read a book which is that way for me =).
I need to clarify–I meant to say I’m not particularly curious about Darrin Hufford, and not particularly interested in his understanding of things (although I could become so). Much more interesting to me is your particular experience of Darrin Hufford’s book. In what way was Darrin’s book confirming to you?
I ask a lot of questions because I’m shockingly curious, and because to me questions are like beautiful gifts which we as people give to each other.
Do you experience questions in this way?
I like.
Thanks, Matthew!
Chad