Do you sense a shift in authority?
If so, how do you feel about this shift and where now is our authority? (Phyllis thinks the authority is shifting to the Holy Spirit)
If not, how do you respond to those who do sense a shift?
While this clip introduces the topic and will certainly stir up some interesting conversation, it really doesn’t do Phyllis justice. I highly recommend watching Phyllis’ 45-minute lecture on this topic or reading her book The Great Emergence.
Updating…
Phyllis Tickle is the author of the book The Great Emergence: How Christianity is Changing and Why.
I’m curious about whether by “authority” you mean “power” here, and if not, what *do* you mean by it?
Benjamin, obviously I’m just borrowing Phyllis’ “authority” language, but here’s how I’d interpret her use of the word authority:
As a follower of Jesus I desire to make choices in life that align with this greater power that I call god or jesus, but sometimes that’s difficult to discern. For me, some things have greater “authority” than others to help direct me in how to best live my life and I tend to listen more to those things which I’ve given more authority. I guess authority could mean power, but then we’d have to define power too:-)
See the strands I see being more fluid going forward are what Craig talks of in finding certain realities for ourselves.. isn’t this a relationship… as 1 John “if we walk in love then…” it’s this learning within relation.. in an intimate.. and albeit messy way.. as Bart reflects in his vids.. although I can’t help thinking that if i’m a follower of Jesus.. that maybe i’m more of a perv stalker.. and he just wants to say .. “Hey, stop gettin so close.. you’re creepin me out!”
power does need to be defined, but don’t ya feel we’re too overt..like we’re looking for the all too obvious? as I find small momentary places to put on the brakes .. I find that awareness.. to more subtle influences.. not so much in a paranoid way.. or even controlling.. but aligning our attitude or disposition to be open.. to ever more graceful and grateful movements of that Same Spirit we saw resonating in the Person of Christ and Divine Dad…
I would say that authority is power, but it’s more than that. You may have authority over your kids, but that doesn’t just mean that you can force them to do whatever you want them to do (by your power), but that you also have an influence that has been granted by them. In other words, they have given you authority…you haven’t taken it or created it on your own.
I think the same can be applied here. There was a time when people simply gave authority to the Church and to leaders like the Pope. Today, many still give the Pope ultimate authority. I do not. And because I do not, there’s nothing the Pope can do to have authority over me, no matter how powerful he is.
So, I guess I would say again that authority is more than just power, it is something that must be given in an act of submission. In that sense, I would hope that we would have a multi-faceted authority structure – triune even – with scripture, active direction from the Holy Spirit and wise leadership from those more mature in their faith all taking on an authoritative role in our lives, but all balancing each other.
I say “triune” because I consider the relationship of Father, Son & Holy Spirit – all equally authoritative, but in different roles, each complimenting the other. Where I think we fail is when we try to prioritize one over the other (and then fully ruin things by distorting the one we exalted).
Adam makes a good point for those still adhering to the protestant or catholic paradigm… and depending on who you give your authority to .. Tickle does seem to be saying that the shift is to the Spirit.. and I wold recommend that 45 min vid to get more detail.. prob is that still has to be defined.. as that guy talked of in vid about the bible as myth.. they key becomes the interp.. is it the primary personality of pastor or pope, or the literalistic or morality of biblical consensus within a certain peer culture..the appeal of these vids seems to me to break free of the heirarchy of ego’s that burnt us out on churchianity .. of which the “system/matrix” and it’s struggle for balancing tradition, ecclesiatical, apostolic….and all the forms that wrap themselves around them.. a part and parcel.. so i ask can we continue to recycle.. merely regurgitating the intellectual and egotistical masturbational premises of those that burnt out.. or find the essences and oil of the Spirit of Love that has sustained the vital nature of our christian intimacies with the divine over the course of the ages?
It is more than just being about the pope, though. In the scheme of things, there are plenty of ‘authorities’ that act on us without our permission. Governments, multinationals for a start.
The gospels say that the Kingdom is more than these things. Compared to them, the relative power of the Pope is neither here nor there.
I don’t know that we ourselves know who our authority is any more. I’m part of a church that most likely would say it subscribes to a sola scriptura view, but practically there’s a lot of learning from and submitting to the authority of one another within the body. I suspect the main thing we’re missing in Adam’s trinity is the Holy Spirit. Our prayer life, as a church, has revolved a great deal around ourselves (health problems, work problems, the occasional lost neighbor). I think we’re slowly coming out of that. To what extent we’re lead by the spirit… well, I’m sure we are, but I can’t point to this word or that event or anything specific that would really indicate that. I don’t feel like we’ve been particularly listening to the spirit.
is it possible for a community of people that are not “christian” to be led by the Holy Spirit?
if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that Christ is part of the Triune God, then there must be a bigger picture here than we are giving Him credit for.
it can’t just be about the man Jesus, or the legacy of Church Authority, can it?
does Jesus stand at the door of every man’s heart?? .. what if I living 200BC Meso America, or 12,000 BC Asia? .. I think that He does .. and I think that man’s understanding of this is going through a dramatic change right now.
and I think that it is amazing that we can talk about this right out in the open!
the Earth is not flat
I’ve never heard anyone who adheres to sola scriptura claim that the Bible will be our pastor as Phylis mentioned. Sola scriptura is more about the Bible being the final authority. There is still the church structure, but that of course submits to the final authority of scripture.
And why wouldn’t it?
2 Peter 3:16-17 (The other 3:16
)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
How is it we need a different final authority, instead of scripture, when we know scripture is God-breathed and is good for equipping us for every good work?
Bruce
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there are other perspectives .. and the fact that those perspectives exist at all, means that the authority isn’t as “final” as some would like to insist.
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consider, for example: the 66 books of the modern Bible were not compiled into one volume until the year 1611 by the Church of England, under King James .. there were a great many groups under the “Christian” umbrella that considered other writings to be “scripture” .. for many centuries.
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having said that .. there is no possible way that 2 Peter 3:16 could have been specifically referring to the modern Bible (as a single 66 book volume) in that verse.
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the Bible is not God .. it is the legacy of the Jeudeo-Christian experience with God.
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I think that the distinction is very important, for those that want to grow beyond the kindergarten stories, and into a true, intimate, interactive relationship with the LIVING God.
The problem with sola scriptura will also be repeated in seeing the Holy Spirit as the sole authority. It is just another schema to avoid the fact that for better or worse we are all our own authority.
The scripture is god-breathed which might seem to make it authoritative and supposedly inerrant, but as it turns out the scripture is made up of words and language simply does not work for anyone except as they interpret it. Language has no substance it is a temporary agreement of similarity in meaning established in a fleeting moment of semiotic interaction.
The universe, was spoken into existence by God. Like scripture it too seems as though it should be authoritative. And to scientists it is but sadly sola scriptura has allowed most Christians to dismiss the need to reconcile hard scientific data with scriptural interpretation. Although scientific data can be verified, the explanation we offer for that data is subject to perspective, paradigm, and our capacity to understand and think critically. SO once again this form of authority has its limits.
The nature of being human was breathed into us. The authenticity of our own existence too could posses a certain level of authority. Yet once again experience only makes sense from a standpoint of a specific perspective.
The bottom line is that all forms of authoritative resources cannot be embraced without the subjective experience of the one who embraces. This would also include a relationship with God. As it turns out no one has direct access to reality. We are all prisoners of a bio-semiotic buffer that uses our biological capacity and sensory perception to make sense of our world.
This means that you and you alone must decide how you will or will not interpret authoritative resources. And you must embrace your frailty and lack of competence in doing an accurate job. Ultimately faith involves accepting responsibility for making sense of reality while trusting that God can somehow do what he does quite in spite of your incompetence for such a responsibility.
Bob, I couldn’t agree more. However, the inherent human tendency is to deny our finiteness…rather than celebrate and embrace our status as limited humanity, we all want to be “God experts” and feel that we have our “act together.”