I’ve wanted to introduce the topic of sex for some time, but hadn’t been able to work up the courage to bring it up during an interview. After being forwarded a blog post of Tammy talking candidly with two other Christian wives about sex, I knew she was the perfect person to introduce the topic on Recycle Your Faith. Luckily, Sara and I were already driving through the town where Tammy and her husband Brent live and they were up for an interview!
What has been your experience with the topic of sex in church?
Do you agree with Tammy and Brent that the topic of sex should be talked about more in church?
Updating…
Brent blogs at inWorship and Tammy blogs at inProgress.
I was glad to hear the suggestion about this conversation being more safe in a small group or one on one. I know of at least one large church (and it’s movement) that seems to use the topic in much the same way as movies and television, from the platform (and they get VERY explicit, including web pages on the church website with graphic instruction and links to other “helpful” sites like Christian Nymphos). Sex sells, I guess, and although I am HUGELY in favor of safe and small conversations/training around healthy sexual intimacy for couples, I think using the subject to shock and sell your church or programs is detestable and only furthers the shallowness that our media culture has created around the subject. We, the church, need to lead the way to a healthy view of sexuality, sexual intimacy and even help people understand common sexual dysfunction in the marriage relationship. Teaching what to DO instead of only what NOT to do seems like a really good thing.
Interesting perspective, Randy. I never considered churches using sex as a way of selling a church! Why am I not I’m surprised:-) Seems like there’s got to be some sort of balance here…
first of all… love the music! secondly… i have a really hard time with small groups talking about sex in a ‘open’ way… my history only allows me to see how this would be extremely dangerous… i’ve fought all my life with sex addiction and i believe in this society, you’ll find that this is the norm now instead of the exception… i think dialoging with other couples on ‘sex toys’ and ‘masturbation’ and other sexual topics could possibly lead to all sorts of disastrous scenarios… i’m just talking from my head and i know that even though we’d like to be ‘open’ with all that great stuff, i think the small group thing is not the way to go… even if these small groups would be gender specific instead of couples, i think you could run into the same problems… does this stuff need to be talked about? absolutely… could a couples small group discussions work? sure, i just don’t think i’d be able to pull it off…
Derek, I’ve been using stock music for these clips. I found that track a while back and have been saving it for a special video…glad you appreciated it
On a more serious note, thanks for being vulnerable with you addiction! How would you find it dangerous to your sex addiction to talk openly about it in a small group? Would it be similar to an alcoholic going to a bar? What kind of disastrous scenarios could you imagine happening?
I used to work with a public speaker who spoke on college campuses about (anti) pornography. One of his goals was to encourage people to stop being so secretive and bring their addictions “into the light”, even if with just one person. I always seen being open and vulnerable (in a safe setting) as positive. Going back to the alcohol analogy, I’d see this more like going to an AA meeting, a safe place to talk about real issues. Do you think it’s possible for small groups to play a role similar to AA? What would it take?
hey craig… sorry for not catching up sooner… flu struck… i want to start with this and then head a different direction… when i was going through my worst, i thought about going to a sex addicts meeting (SA) not to get help, but so that i could pick up a sex crazed object… easy pickins in my mind… so the AA example doesn’t work so much for me… also it’s not so much an alcoholic in a bar, it’s more of an alcoholic at an open bar reception… you gotta pay for the drinks at a bar… i believe sex addiction and sex confusion are a lot easier to participate in with even more devastating results (as in lives affected)…
anyway, i come from a very open church when it comes to ‘sex talk’… my pastor doesn’t shy away from it at all – and in the most appropriate of ways – but it isn’t so much a small group thing there… it’s primarily from the pulpit… he actually was living a double life – one in homosexuality – the other as a heterosexual pastor – this was years ago, but through his experience and sharing about sexual abuse when he was a child, plus coming up in a legalistic home, he is able to have serious conversations about sex in marriage… (appropriate or not, i can’t get marvin gayes ‘sexual healing’ out of my head right now – so i thought i’d share!)
But i think set up is key here… i’ve been part of small groups (actually led one) where the topic of ‘sex in marriage’ came up… one of these was just a mens group… i’ll never forget when one of the guys, who i will say was a very ‘established’ member of the church, started talking about his wife and what turned her on and how they watched porn together – WOW! i never looked at her the same! and also didn’t help me none, cuz i was struggling with my own secret life at that point. So I think it really does go back to ground rules and ‘knowing’ your audience…
i, now, am a pastor. know my people well, cuz there’s not a lot of them. And i also know more than i’d like about some, but such is the life of a pastor. i have been open from the very beginning about my past and my struggles. But i do have to draw the line and make it known what is appropriate to discuss in a small group setting. i have those conversations with the men and my wife has those conversations with the ladies… and it’s not easy… but essential…
So for me, if we are talking about helping people with problems in their sexuality, their identity and such… awesome! but if we are talking to people about toys and positions and having small group studies on the karma sutra, i think we have gone a bit too far…
i think the ‘church’ does have some great resources out there to help in the areas of sexless marriages and pornography and sex addiction… it’s just knowing who’s legit…
xxxchurch was helpful for me to a degree… i also used to meet with a ‘everymans battle’ support group once a week – but that wasn’t really for me – i only lasted there for about a month… (plus no one shook hands!)… but i got a hold of a great counselor from it…
i’m very leary of small group ‘help’ for this stuff, without a ‘trained’ counselor, cuz it’s a blind leading the blind scenario. for me it comes back down to my ‘identity’. a lot of these books and sites and stuff just give you rules to follow, but dont help you identify the source of the problems and work towards coming to terms with them. couple that with ‘ordinary church goers’ opinion of what is ‘healthy’ and things could get more screwy than they were before… *not that some pastors opinions are any more legit… i do believe there is an epidemic in our society as it relates to sex. But…
i’ll use this tired illustration to help me out… let’s say you need heart surgery, you don’t just whip out a steak knife and ask your best friend to ‘help you out’… you go to a heart surgeon… unless of course your best friend is a heart surgeon… but then, i still wouldn’t let him do it, cuz he could be sleeping with your wife.
anyway that’s my take… i actually could go on all day with this, but i’ve gotta work…
thanks craig – you’re the best!
Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I cannot imagine how this “conversation” would look. First, I don’t think it can take on a specific form, as people and sensitivities are different. I believe it would be in different from from church to church and person to person.
Derek, you bring up a good point. There will be people that can never talk about this publicly or with groups of people. But, there are many that can. The key, as I said in the video is finding those that are trustworthy. I also see pornography and sexual abuse as the leading reason people do not have healthy sexual relationships.
As a Pastor, I see so much hurt and confusion dealing with the sexual relationship between husband and wife. Everyday, there is someone with a new story. I see great value in counseling and training people into a healthy sexual relationship. With that comes some of the “sensitive” issues.
My hope is that we can and will start talking. Because there is more accountability and a great opportunity for health.
Tammy said “These are all questions I believe everyone is grappling with in their brain.”
I’m trying to figure out to what she is referring. Is it the list given at the beginning of the video: Masturbating, oral sex, fantasizing, role playing?
Because although I have “grappled” with these things in the past, I don’t really see myself as currently grappling with them.
I grew up in a home and in a church where taling about sex and anything related to it was strictly taboo. I feel a lot more open and comfortable now with talking about sex, but I also don’t go to church anymore. It’s difficult, therefore, for me to answer your question above, Craig, re: church and talking about sex. It seems to me that American Christians have a lot of historical connection to the Puritans, and are therefore in some sense terrified of the human body and sexuality. Maybe it would be helpful for the American Church to have a greater sense of their own history and thus of *why* sex isn’t talked about.
Just wanted to comment on your reference to the Puritans. They get an undeserved bad rap on sexuality. There is plenty of historical evidence that they were very pro sex as long as it was within marriage. There are letters where elders exhort a husband to return as soon as possible from a business trip, so as not to deprive his wife to long from sexual intimacy. The Victorians on the other hand, had things really screwed up. They thought of furniture legs as phallic symbols that therefore needed to be covered up. Much sexual repression lays at the Victorians feet rather than the Puritans, though they were far from perfect as well.
nice intro – it will be interesting to see if leaders like Brent and Tammy figure out how to get this conversation going in a way that is natural. I think women should lead these groups and set the ground rules.
benjamin – great question. there was a lot of editing in this video so it does seem a bit unclear.
what i was referring to in re: to peoples questions – is…is it okay to talk about sex in church? why doesnt my pastor talk about it? why is it such a taboo subject within the church walls?
not all these questions apply to everyone, but each has their own demographic.
These questions have been addressed, but every group has their own opinion in answering what is normal. We all want to know what is acceptable in God’s eyes.
Today the need has grown to be so big in this country, particularly for those that are married and are living sexless marriages that the secular world is beginning to address this issue head on while the church is lagging behind.
Even Dr. Oz is talking about this National Sex Experiment.
http://www.doctoroz.com/challenge/national-sex-experiment
http://ask.doctoroz.com/search?query=masturbation&qa=1
http://www.oprah.com/search.jsp?query=masturbation&resultsPerPage=20&sortBy=Relevancy&filterType=&filterBy=&page=1&x=14&y=10
I agree that people are asking and seeking, but not at church. People need direction and support and misinformation needs to be clarified.
The background music is hilarious.
I meant to say I also found it … interesting that we were discussing sex with you two, Brent and Tammy, being interviewed sitting on what appeared to be your own bed with a big floor to ceiling mirror on the wall next to the bed. Did you guys and Craig discuss the setting? It kind of works, and kind of doesn’t, seems to me. But what do I know? Not much, when it comes to … video production =).
Tammy, I love the way you point out the stupid unreality of movie and TV sex. My wife and I always crack up over this when we’re watching a movie or tv show where there’s a sex scene where guy meets girl, they jump in bed after their first date and have simultaneous orgasms by means of penetrative intercourse in about 30 seconds. HA! Instant destruction of suspension of disbelief.
My pastor at the River Christian in Reno, NV did a 6 part series on sex and a whole one hour on masturbation. very brave and very needed. This is why he is my pastor, he talks about the real stuff. I heard words from the pulpit I thought I would NEVER hear.
“My pastor did … did a whole one hour on masturbation” caught my eye and made me grin. Thanks Kathy. You rock.
Is there mp3 of that hour available on line somewhere? It sounds potentially interesting.
I think the discussion of sex is best fleshed out (no pun intended) with a married couple, mentor relationships, and books. Why? Because the fact is we live in a fallen world and it is very difficult for us to talk about these issues appropriately without people getting turned on, embarrassed, etc. It’s okay to be embarrassed or awkward! Talking about masturbation in a sermon? Totally misplaced in my opinion. I am not shying away from these topics as if they are bad, not what I’m saying. I’m saying there is a ‘best’ way, and that way is between a few men, or a few women, or between a couple (not couples).
Thanks for the discussion!
I feel it is really important to have this subject covered,after all it is a natural part of a healthy marriage. Or in some case in a relationship. But avoiding the subject only brings more question that most are afraid to ask or in some cases answer.It is in the Bible from different variation but I feel should be brought out into the light just as anything else the TRUTH speaks of….Basically I want to thank all who participated in this very much needed discussion.
I was raised in a great church that talked openly about things, but it was always in a negative light. Stay away from it. It’s bad. You’re bad if you do it. I went to a large public high school and saw the effects of sexual immorality, although I didn’t really understand the lingo for much of it. My only indication before marriage that sex could be enjoyable was from tv, and I later found out that, as Tammy said, it’s not reality. I actually heard a speaker say in youth group once, “Sex last for a few seconds. It’s not that great. Why throw everything away for that?” What a confusing sentence that was! The best way I’ve heard sex described was in college during a class. My elderly professor was talking about Jewish history and the customs around their marriage ceremonies. The Jewish people actually celebrate sex within marriage. The adults and children all dance around and party and eat while the married couple goes into a tent (in the center of the party) and consummates their marriage. Then they actually bring out the sheets to show the entire community what they have done! This seems more like it! Anyway, the professor said that, as seen in Song of Solomon, sex between a husband and a wife is as a great feast; a feast of each other’s bodies. And he supported this with scripture! Outside of the marriage this feast loses much significance. It doesn’t taste as good as it should, feel as good as it should, and is laced with insecurities, fear, and completely out of place. It’s like riding a roller coaster without a seatbelt; it changes everything. I don’t think we need to go into specifics, because much of that is supposed to be discovered in the safety and trust of the marraige bed. And we’ve got to get away from all the propaganda that says that sex has to be this way or look like that or feel like that. Only the husband and wife can identify it for themselves. But we can certainly, when we talk about it, talk about the joy that it is within the marriage. The youth need to see something among us marrieds to inspire them to wait. My biggest frustration as a young girl growing up in the church was all the married couples that I was supposed to look up to never touching, or hugging, or kissing each other. All of my pastors growing up acted indifferent to their wives, and it just confused me. If sex is the glue, then why didn’t the married couples look “glued” together, so to speak? I waited out of obedience to God, but with no help from anyone in my church. Even my own mother acted like it was a bad word. Church, we need to get over it! God gave us His son to save us, and the Holy Spirit to guide us, and sex in marriage to show us what “being one” really looks like, so that we better understand Him. Maybe it doesn’t have to be tackled, like other issues, but just faced. Faced for the beauty of what it is. Is is not shameful to God, so why is it shameful to us? With the youth, we don’t necessarily “tackle” the issue either. We just face it when it comes. We answer their questions, we take them to scripture, we make them feel safe enough to ask without condemnation. Maybe it could be that way for us adults too. And once a year, someone delves into Song of Solomon. Goodness, that book’s full of all sorts of things, and we don’t necessarily point it all out to the youth, but we focus on the beauty of sex in marriage. And then usually some parents gets angry that their eighteen year old heard about sex in church *sigh*. This was long… I could go on and on so I’ll sign off now
How can I not respond to this? Yeah, I have not heard much at all about sex from any of the churches we have been to. We have mostly attended evangelical churches so we didn’t necessarily experience the overwhelming negative views on sex but we didn’t hear much, especially on any specific topics. But that attitude, I think, can be just as frustrating. When nothing is being taught, it feels like leadership is just hanging up a sign that says “At your own risk.” I hate that. I am confident enough to evaluate whether or not I agree with something, but that doesn’t mean I don’t need guidance or the opinions of those before me.