thanks for answering my questions!

In answer to your question, I don’t really have an opinion. Bart seems to be coming down on the Pelagian/Arminian side of a question that is millenia old. Since so many people have come to believe, over the centuries, that the Bible supports each side of this question, it’s seems reasonable to me to decide which side of the question makes you happiest, and choose that one. It sounds like Bart feels happy believing God is not in control, and it sounds like you feel happy feeling God is in control. Am I getting that right? If so, I say “Rock On!” to both of you =).

I’m curious, though. Why is being-in-control an attribute which you believe it is important and necessary for God to possess?

To go with your scenario about what if what we said was true became true, would I like what Bart said–absolutely not. The god Bart is describing is no god at all. Speaking of an impotent god is similar to speaking of a height-less hill. It renders the term meaningless.

Do you believe Bart’s thoughts on God in this clip represent what the Bible reveals about God?

Can you describe in more detail what you mean when you say you sense arrogance from Bart in this clip?

You ask an interesting question: Why would you want to believe what Bart believes about God? I mean lets say the Bible wasn’t part of the picture, and you were actually in control of what was true–whatever you decided to believe was true, that would actually *be* true. Under those rules, would you find what Bart believes, based on this video clip, attractive or repulsive or boring? And why?

Universally: As Bart said “God woos us..” This wooing is true, and it is a type of control.

I think God has an overall universal plan for humanity, but at the microscopic level their is personal free choice and with free choice that means no control…unless of course it is your choice to surrender and desire God to be in control.
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God Can’t! — and the Bible Says So

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You seem to be saying there is a difference between believing god is not in control and god actually not being in control.

I wonder if you could elaborate on that difference?

I mean to say … is there any difference experientially?

Or to look at the reverse–if I choose to believe that the universe is benevolent, then won’t that belief ultimately affect the way I understand my experiences so that I will experience the universe being benevolent, whether the universe is “actually” benevolent or not?

I mean to say I think I agree with you. I would go one further and say that it’s all just make believe anyway–we can’t approach “reality” except through the filter of our perceptions and beliefs–so why not choose a set of beliefs which filters reality in the way we choose–to get the outcomes that we want–the experiences we want?

I have no idea what this has to do with the original thread, except that my sense is that Bart has chosen to believe god is not in control because this belief is happy-making for him. For others–for you, perhaps?–choosing to believe that God *is* in control is happy making, so they choose that belief

I look around this weary old world and I don’t see alot of freedom. I see people controlled and bound by tradition, economics, psychology, upbringing, biology, expectations, desires and sin. (Just to name a few.)

What if our so-called freedom to choose was an illusion?

To me, freedom means having the ability to do whatever you want. Well, I want to live a life that is completely sinless and painless and to live in perfect harmony with my Master on a day-to-day, minute-to-minute basis. I don’t want to cause others pain. I don’t want to let people down and I don’t want to hurt people with my selfishness and short-sightedness.

I liked alot of what Bart had to say, but I have to say that I disagree very strongly with what he said about it all spinning out of control and God not being able to fix it. God promises in Romans 8:28 that he works all things together for good. He didn’t say that just to make us feel better or to placate us but rather he was reminding us that the world and the universe is not spinning wildly out of control, but rather God, creator and author, Jesus-the-Logos the sustainer and ordering principle of the universe is in ultimate control and he will protect us from a savage and hostile universe that wants to destroy us. He reminds us that our pain does have purpose and we are not slogging aimlessly through life with no purpose. We are not at the whim of randomness or the vagaries of our fallen world. I would rather believe in a God that is in ultimate control and causes bad things to happen rather than an impotent God who is held captive by his own creation.

I want my illusion of control and freedom. I want that warm fuzzy feeling that I get when I tell myself that I am a free being and that God wants me to freely choose him and love him, and that God doesn’t want robots. Too bad its not real.

My six-week old son loves me, and I love him. It would be nice if he freely chose to love me, but he didn’t. He loves me because I am his father and I love him. Even if one day my son were to tell me that he did not love me, thankfully that would not have to affect whether or not I love him. I would still love him because I am his father. I don’t have the freedom to stop loving him.