Any thoughts about what Vince has to say here?
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Vince Antonucci is pastors a church in Las Vegas called Verve and has written the books Guerrilla Lovers and I Became a Christian and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt.
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Any thoughts about what Vince has to say here?
Updating…
Vince Antonucci is pastors a church in Las Vegas called Verve and has written the books Guerrilla Lovers and I Became a Christian and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt.
I really like the point of this video. But I do think it is important to note that I’m very uncomfortable with the war metaphor. I know it is not Vince Antonucci’s intent but it is important for us to realize when we think of metaphors that makes any group of people the other it easy for us to start thinking of people as the other and not as an equal. That having been said I am inspired by the concept of loving until people ask way I really believe that that is the way to be a Christian.
I like the idea of being ambushed with love, with no expectations. But the last words of the video were telling for me:
“Convince people that there’s something very real about what we believe.”
Posited: ‘Tis impossible to fully listen/be-present/love when convincing is in the back of your mind as your end goal.
Vince–why do you want to convince people?
Chris: I feel ya on the confliction about the war metaphor.
Benjamin: I want to convince people because I’m convinced that everyone needs Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul talks about how we are to “persuade” men. And in Acts 28:23 the Bible tells us that he (Paul) met with people to “try to convince them about Jesus.”
In fact, I’d say: ‘Tis impossible to fully love unless convincing is in the back of your mind as your end goal.
Before I became a Christian, if I knew that there were people who were convinced about Jesus and that I was missing out on life with Jesus and potentially on eternity with Jesus, and they didn’t want to convince me of that — I would have wanted to beat the crap out of them for not caring enough about me to desperately want me to know and believe.
Vince,
Thanks for engaging! You rock!
So can you elaborate on what you mean when you say people need Jesus? Need is one of the very large words. How do people need Jesus? Or more specifically, how do I need Jesus? Convince me =).
Jesus once said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” He claimed to be the way to God, the truth that sets people free, and the source of real life we were designed for, and all long for.
I can say that I lived for 20 years without Jesus, and now almost 20 years with Him, and He has definitely been the way, the truth, and the life for me. And those first 20 years I had no idea I needed Jesus, but I did.
If you don’t have Jesus, my guess is that there’s something deep inside of you that kind of knows it’s true, and hopes it’s true. I’d follow that desire in your heart and see where it leads you. And if you do that, why not try to investigate and experience Jesus, to see if maybe He might just be what you need…
Thanks for the dialogue!
Vince,
That’s really fascinating about the 20 years with Jesus and 20 years without him. I’ve had a sort of reversal of that. I had 23 years with Jesus, and so far ~3 years without him, and I’ve been a much happier, more loving, more open person, on average, in the 3 without him than in the 23 with him.
When you say you “guess there’s something deep inside me that know’s it’s true”, what is the antecedent of the word “it”?–that is, that knows what is true? And why do you guess this? And why guess, when you can ask?
Thank you for engaging! You rock!
Considering how little love is often expressed on an individual basis, I expect that a person would be ‘shocked’ and ‘awed’ by a Christian who actually loved them.
So, perhaps love will be the ultimate weapon which ever way you look at it.
As far as convincing goes…I think love has to be the prime motivator, not convincing. Our responsibility is to love. Jesus was all about love. He wasn’t trying to convince people to say a prayer or sign a statement of faith. He was trying to convince them that they were loved. I think the best way for people to be changed by knowing God is to experience his love, not be experiencing our overpowering logic.
So, you’re right–it comes down to ongoing attacks of love, not the awesomeness of our presentation.
Benjamin,
By “it” (and yes, I feel a little like Bill Clinton having to define what it is) I guess I meant that you need Jesus and that He would make a difference in your life.
And, man, I’d say that if the version of you that’s not following Jesus is more loving and happy than the version of you that did follow Jesus – well, I really doubt it was Jesus that you were following. I don’t mean that in a judgmental way, but in a compassionate way. Because if you take a look at Jesus’ life, He was the most loving person you’ll ever encounter. And truly following truly Him, that will lead us towards becoming more loving. And so if following Him didn’t lead you to being more loving, wow, I have to guess that maybe you were believing, but not really following? Or you were “following” but what you were following was a distorted version of Jesus someone fed you? I don’t know, but that makes me sad. And I’m convinced (had to throw that word in) that if you got an accurate picture of Jesus, and didn’t just believe in the guy, but really tried to live in a daily relationship with Him and follow Him and His way of life, you’d be even happier and more loving (and more of a risk taker, and more fulfilled, and more peaceful, and more dangerous) (I’ll stop there, I don’t want to sound like an infomercial).
i jus feel all groovy in the best way about this interchange between Ben and Vince.. Because although I respect and somewhat admire Vince, and agree with what I consider his conservative emergent view, as to “if he’s Loving” and what it makes of him.. (with all the felt scrip backing he feels needed i guess) .. but i still find it creepy, this stalking Jay-Zuz.. and truly wonder what is really defined in this “daily walking” thing… for him.. not doubting it’s sincerity.. and i’ll support vince in his version of that, as well as the metaphor of war.. this ain’t no garden party.. maybe i resonate with Ben’s internalizing of this relation more.. as the Proph Jerry put it “writing on hearts” .. and that maybe we work too hard on labeling what’s happening.. i kinda feel like some of us Xians feel the pressure of a more workish sect like the mormans.. who seem to want to go out of their way to make it known the’re married and are family people.. (not to knock that either.. i like the vid piece of working with the Cain boys)
.. i mean can’t our relation with the Divine Person be a bit more private.. like i was reading an interp of the gnostic Gspel of Thom recently.. that hit me.. (also related in one of the accepted canon btw) .. that the light is set at the doorway.. and is that the label.. or the love?.. is the essence and character of the One we have the relation with related naturally.. or do we have to put label on it.. we have many unique and distinct relations with people in our lives.. and i’m grateful that the mystery of what is with the divine resonates with the spirit I see so profoundly in the historical Yeshua, that we claim as His appearance on the scene, and has gone on to do so many miracles beyond that life, as He said.. alright.. let’s get our gear and head to the “jungle” boys..
Vince,
You seem to be saying that you believe that deep inside I know that I need Jesus and that he would make a difference in my life. Am I hearing you correctly?
The more general thing I’m hearing from you is you telling me a lot of stuff, and not asking me any questions.
It seems to me that perhaps we have very different understandings of love. For me, the best way to show someone love is to listen to and totally accept them.
It sounded like you said you are a lot happier with Jesus than you were without him? Why are you happier now?
Hey Benjamin,
Sorry, I didn’t notice the last comment you posted until now.
Why am I happier now? (And, by the way, happiness wouldn’t be towards the top of my highest values, but…) Well, knowing that I’m loved beyond reason (and by the one who’s opinion matters most), having hope, knowing that I’m a part of something bigger than myself, having a sense of purpose in everything I do, knowing there’s life beyond this life so the crap in this life is okay.
Why would you say you’re happier without Jesus?
vince
Vince,
That’s a question that makes me think. Thank you.
I know I’m much happier now. I haven’t previously thought about how that greater happiness is connected to not having Jesus anymore. The not having Jesus has seemed secondary–the greater happiness has, it seems to me, been caused by ways-of-thinking-and-being which I have *gained*, rather than those which I have lost.
One big thing is that I now believe that I can choose to believe whatever I want–that one belief isn’t better than another belief because it’s somehow objectively more true. Back when I had Jesus, I believed that I had to search for truth outside myself, and then I had to believe it whether it matched up with my insides or not. I’m much happier in the current condition than in the former one, because I can choose happy-making beliefs.
A specific example. I used to think that I had to hate lies–because (theoretically) God hates lies. So when people lied to me, I felt anger. Now I believe that rather than hating, I can be totally fascinated by lies, and can feel wonder, which is much happier making for me. I only changed my belief about this quite recently–a few days ago– when a person very close to me told me a lie. For me, it was *amazing* to get to change my belief about this. Back when I had Jesus I couldn’t have done this.
Thanks for your response. Interesting to me that you felt like you had to hate lies. I mean, yeah, God hates sin, but primarily His response to sin is grace. So when I’ve had friends who lied to me, or lied about me, I viewed it as an opportunity to show grace. So rather than it being an ugly thing, and something I had to hate, it actually became something kind of beautiful.
Also, it sounds to me like happiness is a major value for you, perhaps your highest. As I said, it’s not anywhere near the top of my list. So that may be something we have to disagree on, and probably makes this whole discussion (at least) a little more complicated.
So I’ve got to ask, and I hope this is okay… With the whole “leaving Jesus” thing, do you ever wonder: “What if I’m wrong? What if Jesus really is who He claimed to be, truly loves me and died for me, and I’ve walked away from Him?”
Vince,
No. I never wonder that. If I wondered that, I wouldn’t so clearly say that I’m not a Christian–rather I would say “I am mostly not a Christian”.
My thoughts toward “current Jesus” (whatever that means) are along these lines: I don’t understand what people mean when they talk about having a relationship with current Jesus. It seems to me that Jesus probably existed and hung out in Palestine/Israel for a few decades back in the day. Then he died. And then maybe he rose from the dead (I admit the possibility, although it seems largely unlikely to me), but then (assuming the resurrection) he disappeared into the sky. No one seems too sure where he is now (still operating under the assumption here). One can’t telephone him, email him, or go knock on his door. Clearly whatever is meant be “relationship” is something altogether different from what we normally mean by the word. Not that I disbelieve you and others who claim to have this relationship. It’s not disbelief, it’s just that I don’t understand, where by “understand” I mean your experience doesn’t resonate with anything inside me.
Benjamin,
I obviously don’t know, but from what I’m reading it doesn’t sound like your first 23 years were truly “with Jesus.” Maybe you believed in Him (maybe not?), maybe you went to church (maybe not), but what Jesus invites us to is a relationship. In fact, it’s even beyond that. He invites us to “abide” in Him. To live inside of Him. The only relationship I can think of that is that close is a baby in his/her mother’s womb…
So if I’m guessing right, then it totally makes sense to me why you’re happier since you left that behind. If it was just a belief system you felt like you were supposed to adhere to, and a morality enforced on you by others, well, that’s not gonna work for anyone.
But IF a relationship with Jesus really is possible and IF you haven’t experienced that yet, then maybe you don’t know what you’re missing…
What do you think?
“But IF a relationship with Jesus really is possible and IF you haven’t experienced that yet, then maybe you don’t know what you’re missing…
What do you think?”
Vince,
You’ve reminded me of something I’ve noticed before. I know (I mean “Conozco”) some people who are extremely kewl, whom I admire and whose take on life, the universe, and everything very much resonates with me and is attractive and appealing, who also happen to be Christians (they are on my LOPWMIPFMTIMAC). And I know some people like that who happen not to be Christians. One thing I’ve realized is that probably if I had grown up in, or first been introduced to, Christianity in the context of people in the former category, it’s somewhat more likely that I would currently be a Christian. (Of course these hypotheticals are always fraught with interesting dangers and sillinesses, because nothing could possibly have happened except exactly what did happen.) But I didn’t. I grew up with/in the Christianity within which I grew up, and this contributes to who I am today. Christianity isn’t *ruined* for me–it’s just not attractive to me as a way-of-being for myself personally. I see no reason to fight against my own set of what-attracts-me and what-doesn’t-attract-me as a way-of-being for me personally, in this particular case. There’s no motivation to, and it’s much easier and kinder and more gentle on myself to go with what motivates me =).
By the way, the people in the former category I mentioned–the Christians whom I admire and find attractive–are people who have other priorities, in their relationship with me, than convincing. I might go further than that–they are people who love me in such a way that I know for sure that they don’t have any fear about my future, in any sense, if I don’t become a Christian–they believe my future is going to be awesome whether I ever believe what they believe or don’t. There’s something very offputting about someone thinking it’s important that I believe like them in order for me to be happy or okay, now or later. It feels totally disrespectful and a bit arrogant.
What motivates you?
Well, first, just so you know: My mother is Jewish and my father was a professional poker player and I literally never went to church or knew anything about Jesus for the first 20 years of my life. At the age of 20 I heard someone talk about Jesus on TV, thought it was ridiculous, and decided to try and disprove the whole thing. (This was just before I went to Law School – so I was into this kind of thing.) I spent months trying to disprove the Bible, and discovering that people far smarter than me had done the same (like the Professor Emeritus of Evidence at Harvard University; and the two leads of the History Department at Oxford University; and William Ramsey, the preeminent archeologist of the last century) and eventually I came to the same conclusion all of them did … that the Bible was true, and Jesus really was who He claimed to be. Honestly I was startled, and a little pissed.
So, for me at least, believing this stuff isn’t what I was born into, or arrogance, but based on pure research and evidence.
And … if a person truly believes that God loves us, and that we were created for a relationship with Him, and that Jesus died for us, and that the path to Heaven is through coming to faith in and following Jesus — if that person wasn’t motivated to help others find what he had discovered, how must he hate those others? Right? If I truly believe that God loves you and misses you and wants a relationship with you, if I care about you how can I not want you to know that? If I truly believe Jesus gave His life for you, how can I not be motivated for you to know that? If I believe there’s a purpose in life, and potentially eternal life, that you’re missing out on, how can I not desire for you to know that?
And being motivated for you to know all that — that’s not disrespectful or arrogant, that’s love. If I believed all that and wasn’t motivated for you to know it, that would reveal a total lack of compassion for you, bordering on hatred.
Have you seen the Penn Gillette (who is a hard core atheist) video where he says he has no respect for Christians who don’t try to share their faith with him, because if they believe in Heaven and Hell, and are content for him to go to Hell, how much must they hate him? So, he says, he doesn’t like being told about Jesus by Christians, but despises Christians who don’t tell people about Jesus, because either they don’t really believe what they say they believe, or hate people enough that they don’t care what happens to them.
I’m guessing you would disagree with his assessment? And with what I’ve said? Well, either way, please know that what I’m saying truly does not come from arrogance or disrespect, but out of love.
Vince,
I wrote this last night, and went to bed, and realized I had written “disrespectful and arrogant”, and wished I hadn’t, and realized that not only is that not following the “dialogue, not debate” rule, but it’s also disrespectful and arrogant of *me* (this is how it works, though–isn’t it–falling into the very traps one identifies?). I’m sorry. I don’t think you’ve been disrespectful *or* arrogant. I’m sorry I was unkind.
No need to apologize. It’s been good talking with you, and I’ve totally appreciated your attitude about everything. Thanks.
Vince,
First, I’m all for more love in the world, and I’m strongly in favor of anything that helps people love other people more deeply. But here’s a question that I have for you: What happens when you meet someone like me (like Benjamin, another one of the de-converted), and you love me and are nice to me, but I still don’t believe what you do? (i.e., I’m not down with original sin, hell, or the necessity of Jesus for salvation, even if I mostly dig the guy I have read about in the gospels, and I get more out of yoga and Buddhist mindfulness than I do praying to Jesus, which is why I don’t anymore.)
I believe love always works, in the sense that love is always a good thing, but what if after one year or five or ten, I still say, “Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior – not so much.” What if I already understand your theology and your Jesus, and just think it’s wrong? Have you encountered that situation in the past? How did you respond?
Hey Christy
Definitely have encountered that in the past, and in the present, and my response is to just keep loving. I don’t love people SO THAT they’ll accept Jesus, I love people because I’m loving and I’ve chosen to follow Jesus – which is the way of love. So love is always the right choice, regardless of the “results.”
As previously stated, my hope is that people will connect with Jesus – because it’s life changing – but that’s not the reason I love people. I love them because I’m loving and I have chosen the way of love. But that is my hope for people…
vince
Hi Vince –
I’m curious: When you say that Jesus is the “way of love”, does that mean that you think that people who don’t follow Jesus cannot be truly loving or just that Jesus was all about the love or something else? If you mean that only Christians can be truly loving – well that would contradict my experience of knowing some really wonderful non-Christians (and some really wonderful Christians too.)
You said previously – “And I’m convinced (had to throw that word in) that if you got an accurate picture of Jesus, and didn’t just believe in the guy, but really tried to live in a daily relationship with Him and follow Him and His way of life, you’d be even happier and more loving (and more of a risk taker, and more fulfilled, and more peaceful, and more dangerous)”
I have to say that this contradicts my experience as well. In my experience, the levels of disturbing personal and familial dysfunction are about the same inside and outside of the church. While I know some people who met Jesus and had a conversion experience that radically changed their lives for the better, I know just as many people whose experience of Jesus is mostly just really, really frustrating. Certainly, that was my experience, and I can assure you that I spent the first 32 years of my life trying pretty damn hard to follow Jesus. What do you do with Christians who do NOT have the experience that you talk about? Do you feel that they aren’t really trying or not really following – because that’s what I take away from that statement…
thank you christy for saying what I felt/thought better than I could.
hey christy, just wanted to add my two cents, know ya didn’t ask me.. but you happened to mention a few of my fave things.. i consider myself deconverted from church, and even much of the dogma you mentioned.. not to go into all that… but there are variations of belief.. and i simply found what works for me.. one which buddhism which helps me with objectivity in my journey, esp tonglen as an optimistic application of the cross.. and yoga, which as an instructor and student, very much helps me integrate the treatment of my body as a temple and to be aware so i can see ways to express more love.. So i guess it would seem to me is you disagree with the practice and defining of love in suppossed christian rituals and creeds.. when Christ just may be much more inclusive than that..and that’s the sense i get with alot of these cats here… btw.. I tend to think the biggest evidence that your buddhist and yoga practice is not enough, is you simply being here.. that Christ wants to inform and complete it… For myself.. buddhism can be overly detatched and relative, as yoga although great for the body can not have the great depth i’ve seen.. since integrating it into my faith more and more each day.. Namaste’ and Satnam to you dear one
Hi Clint –
Just to clarify, while I’m mostly de-converted from Christianity, I still believe and connect with the Divine. And of course there are many variations of belief – Christianity is a big house, and all the parts of it don’t always get along.
You said: “it seems to me that you disagree with the practice and defining of love in suppossed christian rituals and creeds.. when Christ just may be much more inclusive than that.” So, are you saying that I can be a Christian without signing on to any of the creeds, not attending any form of church, not framing my spiritual journey as following Jesus, and while only batting 1 out of 3 on the Holy Trinity? (I’m not down with God the Father either.) If so, cool – but I’m pretty sure that’s not what Vince is talking about.
My experience of my own spiritual journey and of my interactions with my friends who still identify as Christian (particularly of the evangelical variety) is that I have a very different concept of and experience of the Divine, different spiritual vocabulary, and very different ways of approaching my spirituality. I would probably be welcome in some of the liberal mainline churches, but I don’t want to have to repeat liturgies I don’t believe in – even if I’m surrounded by people who don’t believe them either.
Anyway, I’d be curious to know how you see Christ as being more inclusive than Christianity, and how Christ can inform and complete my faith if I don’t hold the view that he is the Son of God/Messiah/Savior. As for why I’m here, I still have a number of dear evangelical friends. I bite my tongue a lot, so every so often I let off steam by debating strangers on the internet.
Namaste to you as well.
Hello all. With a cup of awesome coffee emporium coffee on my right, and a wintery day outside…this conversation is just exactly where I want to be this Saturday morning. I don’t know that I can describe how refreshing this conversation is…to hear people who are engaging from varying perspectives..a truly beautiful thing.
So often peoples defenses rise so immediately when mentioning any one of the buzz works mentioned above, and the moment that could have happened is lost in peacock feathers and puffed chests. real people, real engagement here is very nice.
I’m also thankful for many times just standing in awe when I see the hard work of love in action. I mean heck, even mother theresa struggled. but, in the midst of that, she rose, and she loved. So, i’d say we’re on a good track here.
Holy crap! Vince, what you are saying is something I have felt for many years now, but, growing in the communities I have, it wasn’t really spoke about in this way. I feel like, if I am emulating just love, the kind of love Christ showed, then eventually that has an effect and maybe that will open doors. But this mentality doesn’t often coincide with the evangelical ways of “evangelism.” Not that anyone has ever really berated me for how I “evangelize” I often feel like I am not doing my part because I don’t just walk around preaching. I feel like living love is preaching. Vince, I really like what you have to say. I would love to hear more. Thanks