This is the second week in a four-part series called Four Perspectives on Homosexuality. Each week a different person will be highlighted with a different point of view. A new segment called “Rewind” will also accompany these week’s main video. Rewind segments give you a glimpse into the experiences that have shaped the interviewee’s perspectives. For more information about the Four Perspectives on Homosexuality series click here.
The Biblical interpretations that Kathy briefly unpacks in this clip are more thoroughly explained in articles that you can find on the web. A Google search for “homosexuality and Bible” will pull up information from both sides. Two organizations that have different perspectives and lots of resources are Evangelicals Concerned and Exodus International.
How do you respond to Kathy’s understanding of those passages in the Bible? Do you find her arguments convincing?
How much influence does the Bible have on your views towards homosexuality?
ABOUT THE INTERVIEWEE: Kathy Baldock is affiliated with Affirming Christian Network and has resources and a blog at Canyon Walker Connections.
OTHER CLIPS BY: KATHY BALDOCK
OTHER CLIPS ABOUT: Homosexuality
PURCHASE THIS CLIP: RYF Vol. 3 | Reconsidering the Bible and Homosexuality
Thanks Craig. oh my goodness, it is beyond imagine to fit 7 controversial verses into 6 minutes! Thank you for doing it so well. I appreciate it and would ask people to stay posted to my website. I will go thru each verse in detail, in context, original language and the culture of the day. Thanks again, K
Kathy, you are walking the walk of the beautiful feet, bringing the gospel of God’s grace to LGBT’s without challenging their gay identity. Not one of us is entirely set free (sanctified) of the POWER of sin in our lives – that only comes in glorification.
Giving Christ a beachhead in our depravity, even while holding fast to our sexual identity gives the Holy Spirit an entry point toward our sanctification.
Still I am troubled less by Romans 1, than by 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
“9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
Here Paul is clearly expressing that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God (which is the other side of the coin of the Gospel of Grace) will not be universally inclusive.
Earlier in the same epistle 5:11, Paul admonishes the church of Corinth_
“11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Here, Paul instructs the church not to judge the world, but also not to share communion with professing Christians whose behavior still falls below a certain minimal bar of sanctification.
I suggest you go to my blogsite and read the treatment of all the verses there that also include videos associated with them. That should further explain how i see these verses. http://www.canyonwalkerconnections.com
Hello Kathy, I must admit that my heart is troubled and at the same time amazed that a Christian who professes to know the scripture can be so deceived. Please understand that I’m not judging you, but the scriptures you read clearly states God’s disapproval of homosexuality! Not only homosexuality but all sexual immorality! As far as the LGBT community, yes Jesus does love them but not their sin. He wants to save them from their sexual immorality just like the fornicator and the adulterer! If God did truly called you to minister to the LGBT community, then it was for the purpose of introducing Jesus to them so that they can be delivered from their sin! Kathy I pray for you that Jesus allows you to see the truth through the revelation of his Holy Spirit. God Bless you!
Great video. Thank you for making it.
Incidentally, you did not spell “Sodom” correctly (you wrote “Sodem” in reference #2).
Thanks for the catch Dekortage…correcting now.
I love you. Thanks for taking the responsibility to reflect upon your own beliefs, and admit that sometimes what we “think” needs to be questioned. If the holy spirit works is you, you are loved by God. No matter who or what you do.
Great job, Craig (and Kathy). I would implore people to watch the “rewind” video first…just to set the context better. This is such a difficult issue in the evangelical world (and in the Anglican world) that these kind of dialogues are critical to navigating our way through together. I am not resolved on it myself, even though I am a huge fan of Kathy Baldock (and a local friend). But I’m willing to explore, learn and grow in this area, which is enough to bother some of my more rigid evangelical brethren. I don’t know if I agree with Kathy on all points, but I have deep respect and admiration for her willingness to follow the conviction she senses from the Holy Spirit into some really difficult water. Peace to you, friend. May God protect and guide you as you follow His lead.
What a beautiful person you have revealed to us Craig. Beautiful. Thank you.
Homosexuality is at least sexual perversion. We don’t need the Bible to tell us that. I am sorry but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Jesus, the only true “Christian” once said: “Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me” If you want to call yourself a “Christian” then you must first deny yourself. That means no lust! and certainly no sexual perversions. If you ask God to heal you he will! but I warn you, do not deny him as he may not take you seriously again. He will heal you but you must deny your lust and give up you desire for sex. Isn’t this clear? A “Christian Homosexual” is only a true oxymoron! And nothing else.
Marc-if I say that I know over 800 GLBT Christians, what would you say to that? The way I assess that is: profession of faith and fruits of the Holy Spirit exhibited in their lives. It is really not that tough to know if someone is a follower of Jesus when you do relationship with them. So, Marc, what do I do with that then. You say it is not possible, but I see it, experience it and God gives me the peace in me to accept it. You are correct in seeing the word “perversion” as one of the translations that some versions of the Bible use with the word that is often translated as “homosexual”. In some versions, it says: the effeminate, male prostitutes, perverse ones. Which is right? I do not know ANY GLBT people that are also prostitutes. None. And the word abomination is also used to describe my friends.That word is used in the OT where is appears to describe many things you may well be guilty of: long hair, sex with a woman who has her period . If God REALLY had wanted the message that this thing was send-you-to-hell worthy, He could have had the writer use the word ZIMMAH which is used to describe adultery and incest. So sex with children is NOT OKAY and in Jude–no sex with strange flesh, animals. when people make the if it is okay to have same sex then what about children and dogs? Not in the same class to God or ANY GLBT people I know. I have a pretty extensive record of relationship here. I challenge you Marc to get into relationship with a GLBT person and hear what they say about themselves and not what you have imagined is true.
I am sorry, but the way you are teaching is not correct. I am not supposed to judge, but I am supposed to tell the truth. In 1st Timothy Chapt. 1 verse 3-Is the warning against False teachers of the law. 3.As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4. nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work-which is by faith. 5. The goal of theis command is love, which comes from a ure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.7. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidenty affirm. 8. We know that the law if good if one uses it properly. 9 We also knowthat law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; fo those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10. for adulterers and perverts, for slace traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11.that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
Whether you want to believe it or not, what you are doing- leading others astray is a sin and you will have to answer to God in the end. You better pray on that one sister. For every man must answer for what is his sin either in public, private, or his thoughts. God sent his son so that we can be saved from hell and you are smearing that precious blood to trash and yes I will say the truth, because you are not in the truth.
What if 2 homosexuals have a romantic relationship and do not engage in sexual activity before marriage? Or at least they might engage in the same amount of sexual activity as is permitted by God to heterosexuals. Are they still being sinful?
And what if a 2 homosexuals were to have a life long romantic relationship with each other and not engage in various forms of intercourse because they believed this sort of sex to be a perversion. Would they still be sinful?
My point, perhaps being gay isn’t wrong in itself. Perhaps they are some homosexuals that engage in sinful relationships and some that don’t? And if there were those that didn’t would we still want to deny someone a deep meaningful relationship because of the chance they might sin.
What if 2 homosexuals have a romantic relationship and do not engage in sexual activity before marriage? Or at least they might engage in the same amount of sexual activity as is permitted by God to heterosexuals. Are they still being sinful?
And what if a 2 homosexuals were to have a life long romantic relationship with each other and not engage in various forms of intercourse because they believed this sort of sex to be a perversion. Would they still be sinful?
My point, perhaps being gay isn’t wrong in itself. Perhaps they are some homosexuals that engage in sinful relationships and some that don’t? And if there were those that didn’t would we still want to deny someone a deep meaningful relationship because of the chance they might sin. .
Marc,
what do you mean when you say that homosexuality is a perversion?
In the context of the current subject matter, your comment “you cannot have your cake and eat it too” strikes me as incredibly ribald and hilarious. Rock on! I believe you can both have your cake and eat it, having ongoingly experienced both of these things for quite a number of years.
Benjamin, The base word in “perversion” is “perverse”. If you are not sure what that means you should look it up, use the word in 3 of your own sentenses, and move on. Homosexuals are presuring us as the “moral majority” to somehow except them as “normal” and it’s not gonna happen. They need to go back in their “closets” and SHUT-UP! It sickens me to hear the two words together, “Christian Homosexual” And it IS clearly an oxymoron by it’s definition. Maybe you wanna look that up too? Peace dude!
Marc, even though I don’t know you, and I don’t know what personal experiences have shaped your perspective, I sense that this topic is something that you have intense feelings about – one might even say that you are passionate about it.
I pray that God will fill you with God’s everlasting, overwhelming and all-encompassing love, so that you may know, without a shadow of a doubt, that YOU are God’s beloved Child, in whom God is well-pleased.
May you be filled with Loving-kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.
Marc, how can you call yourself a Christian when you are so blatantly condemning of other people? you aren’t god, and you don’t have the right to judge. to tell us all to go back into our closets and shut-up is exactly the kind of ignorant and awful attitude that leads to gay people’s marginalisation, ostracism and even suicide.
If you think homosexuality is a sin, (which I would rigorously argue against but won’t bother to do so here), then I can still argue this point:
You described Christian-homosexual as an oxymoron
What about
Christian-Capitalist
Christian-oppressor of the weak?
Christian-Selfish-with-money?
Christian-Judgement and condemnation?
Christian-Lustful-thinker?
Christian-Misogynist?
Christian – INSERT YOUR CHOSEN SIN HERE
If you say Christian-Homosexual is an oxymoron, what about just CHRISTIAN-SINNER?????
I’m pretty sure the Bible makes it clear that all of us are that.
Marc, Your grammar and spelling are the real sin here.
Marc, if “perverse” means “not normal,” then, according to every scientific study, monogamous males are perverse. Women who are virgins when they are married are “not normal” (not the norm). Judge less. Think more.
Marc, re: your allegation that “Christian homosexual” is “an oxymoron.” What about, “Christian sinner?” Are you a Christian and somehow not a sinner? If so, I don’t believe you. I truly don’t believe you. Methinks you’d do well to step out of that closet.
(This said, I don’t believe that all forms of hetero – or homo – sexuality are sinful.)
Marc,
I know what I mean by it. I was wondering what you meant by it.
When you say it sickens you, do you mean you actually feel nauseated, or is it less visceral than that? Did you feel this while you were watching the first or second video above?
Just watched the rewind video–that is *so* fascinating that the centurion’s servant was actually his gay sex partner. Wow. We sure didn’t hear about that growing up in evangelicalism. That’s amazing. Thank you *so* much, Craig and Kathy.
Kathy & Craig, thanks for putting together a wonderful statement! Kathy, I really appreciate that you were able to share with us your very personal experiences. Thank you! I am honored.
Kathy, I struggle with your proof-texting. I think that has almost no value – one can make the bible say anything we want it to say. For a start, Adam just means man, I don’t think it makes any sense to read into it as if it was talking about an individual. For me, an argument couched in those terms is a hiding-to-nothing.
It is a strange thing to me to engage in a heart-led gospel action (loving someone who feels unloved) and then feel that you’ve got to justify yourself by constructing a biblical metanarrative that supports it.
BA HA HA! I love that you don’t see how silly your comment was
“Kathy, I struggle with your proof-texting. I think that has almost no value – one can make the bible say anything we want it to say”
Yep, and haters like yourself have been making it say what they want it to say. People like Kathy seem to be taking back the bible from small minded people like yourself.
As for saying that something someone believes in has no value… that is just sad and also speaks volumes of your character (or lack of)
I just have one question: how can one read Genesis 19 and then tell me that it’s ok to be homosexual?
Does God love homosexual people? I’m convinced he does, he loves everybody.
He even loves me : ). However, God doesn’t always love our actions and being a homosexual is an action he (the way I understand it) doesn’t approve of, otherwise he wouldn’t have wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah
Peter, did you watch both videos above? Genesis 19 is addressed. Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t destroyed because of homosexuality but because of rape and violence.
Yes, Peter, God loves homosexual people, the same way (She) loves heterosexual people! God doesn’t make mistakes. Being a woman who *prefers* having a relationship with another woman to having a relationship with a man is the way God made me. It’s not what I DO – it’s who I AM. As it happens, I haven’t been in a relationship with ANYBODY for the past 11 and a half years, so I haven’t been DOING anything (darn it!) and yet I still am more likely to fall in love with a woman than with a man, because that’s the way God made me.
So yes, Peter, God loves you and She even loves me!
And God loves both of us JUST THE WAY WE ARE. We don’t have to DO *anything* – or even REFRAIN from doing anything – to “earn” God’s love. It is freely given – no strings attached, no prerequisites. And the corollary is also true: There is NOTHING we can do that will cause God to STOP loving us!! NO-THING. Period. No matter how heinous our actions may be, God STILL loves us, because God’s love is neither given BECAUSE of our “good” actions nor withheld because of our “bad” actions. God’s love just IS, because that’s WHO GOD IS: God is Love.
And the cool thing is, (See, you’ve got me all worked up, here!) God is *in* EACH one of us, which means that WE also are Love! That same unconditional love that’s not dependent on what anybody says or does or who we (or they) think they are. Unconditional Love = Love without conditions, Love that’s not dependent on ANYTHING!
Now, THAT’s amazing! Truly AWE-SOME.
Thanks for asking!
Laurie, I do appreciate your answer and agree with most of it, especially with the part where God Love is unconditional.
There is some disagreement though when you say that you as a woman prefer to have a relationship with another woman because that’s how God made you.
If I had a son who was of aggressive nature and he would hit other kids in Kindergarten just because he felt like it, it would not be tolerated. I couldn’t just say it’s ok because God made him that way, right?
I cannot blame someone else for my doings and actions, no matter how I am. What I do and how I do things is my responsibility.
Exactly, Peter! My actions are my responsibility, indeed! But here’s the difference: my loving another woman (assuming that it is genuine) doesn’t hurt anyone.
I am not asking you to love a man in the same way that I love a woman, but only that you allow me, in good faith, to live my life and show my love in the way that is natural for me. I only ask that you acknowledge that God is in me, the same as I acknowledge that God is in you.
Laurie,
I disagree with you on this matter, but that’s ok.
The way I see it, homosexuality is a sin. BUT, I also believe that all sins have the same “value”, and knowing that and knowing that I am a sinner I know that you are not better than me and I am not better than you and I am not trying to jugde you here!! Just wanted to make that clear!
Laurie, please don’t take this as a personal attack, but I guess you’re not implying that because God loves us he never expects us to change (are you?).
Seems to me that this thing about ‘God is love’ is overegging the pudding. To those who are weak and broken and damaged and hurt and forgotten and sick and imprisoned – to those, God is love. The true gospel message is that God cares even if nobody else does, that he stands with you, that he is on your side.
But to those of us who are already blessed, already self-satisfied, already living lives of abundance and luxury we have not earned, I don’t think the primary message of the gospel is love.
I appreciate that you are not attacking me personally, Joe, and I thank you for that!
And to those self-satisfied ones who live blessed lives of abundance, what do you see as the Gospel message to all of you?
That we’re not alright but all wrong and we need to seek forgiveness and change our ways.
Peter
I’m a bit confused as to how Genesis 19 touches on the okayness of homosexuality. Can you elaborate.
Did you notice one of the things God said he destroyed Sodom for in Ezekiel 16: “they did not help the poor and needy”? pretty fascinating.
Genesis 19: 5 They called to Lot, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them. 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof. 9 Get out of our way, they replied. And they said, This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them. They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. 10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door…
Men wanted to sleep with men, it’s clearly said: V7 … don’t do this wicked thing. Pretty clear to me.
I take it you know nothing about ancient hospitality rules, Peter. It was better to cause damage to your own family than to those sheltering under your hospitality than your own family. It is only strange (and only suggestive of blanket condemnation of a sexual practice) because we have almost zero understanding of hospitality in anglo-saxon societies.
That said, it is a messed up story/culture when the choice is between allowing an attacker to rape your guests or your daughters. Quite what we’re supposed to learn and apply from that story I have no idea.
Joe,
clearly we’re supposed to learn that it was a pretty sucky place to live. Although arguably not as sucky as Baghdad under U.S. occupation.
I thought the “wicked thing” referred to here was not homosexuality but gang rape. If there is anything both straight and gay Christian can agree upon about the Bible and homosexuality, it’s that rape and lust are wrong.
Why Lot thought it was okay to send out his daughters, I don’t know. He should have thrown himself into the crowd.
we can read the Lot’s daughter piece in context and culture-women as possessions and the high reguard for the guest in your home. We need to read ALL verses in context and not just the ones that make us personally uncomfortable. If we were to ever take this action of Lot’s as 100 instruction on how to deal with home break ins, we would be deemed insane. Context, context and when you read it again, context.
Neither sending his daughters out or the angels out is ok. Either decision was bad. The correct choice was to send no one out. In fact, if Lot had followed God in the first place, he would not be in this situation at all. THe point of the story is that God was about to destroy Sodom because of its wickedness. Abraham pleaded with God to save Lot. So God sent the angels to bring out Lot. Its about God fulfilling His purpose through imperfect people.
Is this really the evidence you offer?
Even in the bible it is a less awful thing to allow your daughters to be raped (heterosexually) then it is for some strange men to be raped (homosexually).
OF COURSE – you aren’t taking into consideration two things
1) Women (unlike men) were property and therefore had NO FREEWILL – it would be like saying — don’t RAPE those men – just have sex with my fleshy couch that is brand new. A couch can’t be raped because it has no rights or freewill.
2) This is just a story made up by some men countless years ago and keeps getting passed down from generation to generation and little by little we chip away at the parts that no longer work for society. Like SHELLFISH eating.
wow lot is a bit of a jerk …. not very godly to offen men the chance to rape your virgin daughters…you are the best dad ever. thanks again bible for offering such good moral guidance
Peter, the Hebrew for “have sex with” was yada, which had 55 different meanings. Two of which are, “become acquainted with” and “teach someone a lesson” (slang intended for the latter). The men of Sodom in that story were clearly bent on FOREIGNER-BASHING, that is, doing violence to Lot’s guests, even to the point of gang-rape. And gang-rape is an act of voilence: the victim is severely beaten, usually with critical injuries, as well as forcibly penetrated.
Wow Craig, I guess you are getting comments.
A few brief comments
@ Johanna- Yes. It is not easy to pause in the tracks of what you THINK you understand. I am in the midst of writing a book and when I review the past ten years, I see some very distinct point where I was faced with choices that FORCED me to takes it deeper. I value relationship and people and will not simply brush them aside for what I THINK I understand.
@Randy-thanks for the respect even when I am a screw up and life learner.
@Marc-I don’t know what experiences you have, but they must be pretty impressionable to use the language you do.
@Joe-proof texting 7 verses in under 6 minutes? I would think that is a challenge for anyone. Stay tuned to my youtube channel of blog site listed at the end. Ten minutes on a verse is tough, but I try to do it. Will it eliminate all questions? No. BUT< what I hope it will do is present the question that MAYBE there is room for another view. Especially in Romans 1:26–I see this as HORRIBLY misused. People want to say "oh, she just needs to be nice and justify her relationships and slants the Bible to do that." That kind of a statement discounts my relationship and ability to hear the Holy Spirit. Can you see that? I could NOT do what I do without having alignment in my Spirit. Just because it is not in alignment with another persons', does not mean that I must be doing it from my flesh. There are doys when I wonder how two people that both claim to hear the Holy Spirit, hear such opposing views. THAT is certainly a question on my God-list.
@Peter—do some word searches and see what comes up many times with Sodom–you get the Flood. Study the similarities as I did and it shocked me what I was lead to. (will do a video on this on in time).
Equating sexual orientation with alcoholism, anger , murder, pedophilia and other distortions is way out of line. Sexual orientation defines which sex you are naturally attracted to.
And finally, for now at least, be careful to only work with the words you see in the Bible and not insert other words. The Adam and Eve issue and in Romans 1:26 are prime examples.
I just released a blogsite this week and put up an interesting post about Scott Lively and conversation I had recently with him This is one of those "I hear the Holy Spirit and you don't" areas. Please read it to the end.
http://www.canyonwalkerconnections.com and my youtube has a few new videos on Romans 1:26, Romans 1:27, 28 and the invitation to pastors. More will follow on all 7 verses/areas of the Bible.
http://www.youtube.com/user/canyonwlkr
This discussion needs to happen in the church. We are tossing 5% of the population directly to the waiting arms of Satan because it is messy to our theology and social comfort. There has to be a better solution. I actually am bold enough to think that God called me to this ministry and He very much cares about His GLBT children and their inclusion. Peace out.
No thanks Kathy, I will not be checking out your web presence.
Notice, I didn’t say your conclusions were wrong but I am highly suspicious about the way you are attempting to get to them. This is not the way to use the bible, it is not a mathematics crib sheet which we use to find the answer to any given problem.
I have not nor would not make an attempt to assess your spiritual status, this being something for God alone to decide. But you’re making a wild statement when you suggest that “I could NOT do what I do without having alignment in my Spirit” – I would not even consider making such a statement about myself.
“This is not the way to use the bible, it is not a mathematics crib sheet which we use to find the answer to any given problem.”
It’s not? But that’s how a lot of Christians treat the Bible. Therefore, if someone has to defend themselves, they must adopt the same logical system.
Or the someone could just themselves point out that this is a silly way to use the Bible, which works out to a better defense in one sense.
Wow – I love this conversation. The judgement on homosexuals from Christians was one of the very distinct things that repulsed me and keep me from being a christian for many years. I am not gay, but I fully recognize that I never chose to be hetro-sexual any more than I chose my height or hair-color. It just was. For those who see homosexuality as a perversion or abomination, or any other sin, please tell me at what point in your life you chose NOT to sin in that way. Did you choose it at the same time you chose your height, hair color, etc? How lucky for you – I wish I would’ve gotten to make those choices. I would love to choose to be 5’6″ – just I know some of my gay friends would’ve gladly taken a hetrosexual life as it certainly does not carry the same burden and hardship that a homosexual life does. Maybe I’m short because we live in a sinful world … maybe I’m short because God made me that way … either way, I don’t think I’m any more (or less) perverse than a homosexual, a red-head, or that chick that I envy who is a “normal” height.
For those of you who are reading your bible literally … be careful that you do your research. I’m no biblical scholar, but I did do extensive research on this one. The original meaning of the “homosexual” reference that is so popular now, really had far more to do with permiscuity. Anybody have sex out of marriage … or thought about someone who wasn’t the person you were committed to? Is that the sound of stones being thrown that I hear?
Kathy, Craig … bless you. Bless you for concentrating on that piece that Jesus said was MOST important … love. Love and grace … it’s the only way I came to love Jesus … even though I still have a lot of problems with most of his followers.
Why did God create men and women, if he wanted men to love men and/or women to love women? He could have just created one form and have them love each other.
Why did God tell us to be fruitful and multiply and if so, why would he create men and women in a way (as homosexuals) that makes it impossible for them to fulfil his wishes? Wouldn’t that be somehow weird?
If God really wanted homosexuality, why can homosexuals not naturally reproduce?
Could it be that we live in a fallen world due to Adam and Eve’s mistake and now as a consequence we do not live in paradise anymore, we live in a world that is certainly not the way that God intended it to be?
Could it be that a lot of stuff is going wrong in this world and God NEVER EVER wanted it to be that way, but we deciced to not follow him but rather our own will?
Presumably you have some relationships which are platonic? Presumably you have had some sexual relationships which are not permanently reproductive?
… and I thought we were talking about homosexuality here … sorry, must have misunderstood something …
I think we’re talking about sexuality. You brought up men and women; Joe just continued what you started.
Suppose you are right: men and women were created to reproduce. If so, why have you had relationships with women that were not reproductive? Why have you had sex that was not intended to be reproductive? Aren’t you violating the intentions of God? Don’t blame the fallen world for your sin.
Isn’t that a very Roman Catholic and very silly idea–that sex ought to some how always be about procreation? It’s silly along the same lines of silliness as claiming alcohol is inherently evil.
I never said that sex is only for reproduction, also I don’t believe that. But, the general idea behind sex is reproduction or not? And no, I never had any sexual relationships outside my marriage.
But I guess you guys don’t have answers, you just like to oppose …
No, you were attempting to show that the only valid relationships are those which involve sex between a man and a woman. This is clearly not the case, given that we all have platonic relationships which are not at all about sex.
And please do not put words into my mouth – I was not suggesting you’d been unfaithful, I was asking whether all sexual relations you’ve ever had with your wife were reproductive.
Clearly most (perhaps all) man-women relationships are not just about reproductive sex, hence your argument is entirely worthless.
joe, are you not reading what people are writing?
Peter,
You said it would be wierd if God made some people in such a way that it is impossible for them to have reproductive sex. How is that wierd? I mean that goes way beyond issues of homosexuality. Why does that strike you as wierd? What about all the heterosexual people who can’t have reproductive sex? Is that weird to you as well? And why?
Why do you believe that God creating two sexes indicates that he only intends for sexuality to be between those two sexes? Does that also mean that God thinks mules are a bad idea? Or seedless grapes? Thoughts?
benjamin,
I’m writing generally here, not about single cases. Of course there is much more to sex than reproduction (at least for us human beings), but reproduction is certainly one of the main reasons.
No, I don’t find it weird, that there are heterosexual couples who cannot reproduce, I find that sad, but I think that this is another result of the fallen world.
However, my question was, that thinking that reproduction is one of the main reasons for sex, why God would create it that way and then create humans who can’t have reproductive sex?
What I find interesting is, that you equal grapes, mules and humans. To me there is a big difference. As far as I know neither donkey, horses or grapes were created in “God’s image”, humans were though so for me there is a big difference.
If seedless grapes and mules are a bad idea in God’s eyes? I suppose not. God gave us the animals and plants to “use them and rule over them”, so I guess to some degree we can with them whatever, but that would be another discussion anyway.
However, it really seems that nobody can give me answers to my questions, which makes me wonder if maybe my thoughts are right.
It is very difficult to have a conversation with you when you only can engage when the debate is couched in your terms – I was attempting to examine your prepositions rather than play games of ‘answer my question, no mine’.
I can’t answer your questions because it seems to me that they’re based on nonsense.
Peter, you wrote, “However, it really seems that nobody can give me answers to my questions, which makes me wonder if maybe my thoughts are right.”
Actually folks have answered your questions several times, by asking relevant questions that would involve an actual discussion. As far as I can tell, your questions are based on faulty assumptions, which is why we’re trying to discuss them. But if you refuse to discuss your assumptions, then your questions will never be answered — because you’ve effectively already answered them for yourself.
Here in lie other questions to ponder, Peter, and anyone else that would like to chime in. What does it mean to be created in God’s image? Is God male, female, both or neither. What was the purpose for creating male and female? In addition I wonder about the necessity for male/female sexual relationships considering we have SERIOUSLY over populated the planet. So much so that poverty, famine and disease really are taking their toll. Can’t we see things a little less traditionally and be a bigger family/village that engages with one another personally rather than go back and forth with all of this crazy talk. Our understanding of Scripture, God and even our own spiritually are all so feeble. It’s so easy to put God in a box. STOP!!! Believe that He/She has the power to changes lives that need changing period. We need only to live as Christ did, PERIOD. There are a number of Pharisees speaking out on this comment stream… be careful because Christ did confront Pharisaical thinking and actions.
And Laurie, if you read this know that you are appreciated. Your spirit seems to radiate towards us all.
Our brains ALWAYS want to reduce homosexuality to SEX, the act of SEX, two men having SEX, lube,bars—-but, you know what? Is is about ORIENTATION–what sex you are attracted to. I am a attracted to men (one man) and my relationship with him is NOT about SEX, it is about attraction to him first and he happens to be man. if we could just shift that thinking and get over our own views that this is about sex, we might find our way into looking at others as just people. I don’t look at my straight friends and think about them in bed with partners. We may not admit this, but I have been in enough conversations with people to know this is what it gets reduces to. If you struggle AT ALL in viewing another person as just a person, I am convinced the issue has zero to do with them. It has everything to do with you and God. And He is not the problem. Put any one in that “other” category. If you were at Gay Pride with Jesus, would you look like Him? If not, the problem is YOU. Not them, YOU. My sweetie works with the homeless and he faces this in his ministry. The BUMS, the WORTHLESS, the LAZY, the GOOD-FOR-NOTHINGS. We really do need to get this clear, ALL people get an equal shot at the Throne of Grace and we don’t get to block the path with any of our rules. He cleaned up my miserable life, if He wants to clean up GLBT people from thier orientation, let Him do it. Those who don’t want to see any further on this issue, you are missing out on your own wholeness in God by loving others that make you uncomfortable. Skip the “love the sinner, hate the sin”, i f I can spot in a few thoughts, the Holy Spirit sure can. I believe how we treat the several on the edge is the next decision point in the church for significance in our world.
Kathy, what you say is so true. Thankyou so much for going in to bat on this issue.
I totally agree – homosexuality as an identity is reduced to “sex”. Are you always thinking about “sex” in your “heterosexual” identity? Nope. Well, the same goes.
After majoring in gender studies at Uni it’s impossible for me to look at this issue with ignorance any more. Christians, those who are supposed to be agents of love, acceptance and non-judgement, have been some of the most oppressive agents of harm to GLBTI’s.
While I want to believe in God it is the ignorance of Christians that seems to make it impossible for me (was brought up in a Christian family, so I am not unaware of all it’s implications). Since finishing my degree I’ve moved home only to feel the collision of two worlds and the inherent hopelessness of reconciling being a christian as well as a feminist, bisexual, and gay rights advocate.
It is so uplifting to suddenly see, when I thought there was no hope of that, that it is possible.
Thanks again.
Heather, check out my blog and use the info there to pass on to others. sometimes my “straight ” voice gets into places where yours (NOT fair) cannot.
http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/?p=388
“He cleaned up my miserable life, if He wants to clean up GLBT people from thier orientation, let Him do it.” But God often works THROUGH other people. He changed my life (including helping me to stop having sex outside of marriage, which was doing immense damage to my life even though I couldn’t always see that), THROUGH my friends. God works through the materials that are here on Earth, through those people who have the compassion to speak out when they see those they love hurting themselves, be it through drugs, alcohol, or sexual sin.
Of course homosexuals should not be reduced to the homosexual sex act, just as heterosexuals shouldn’t be reduced to sex, either. But that doesn’t mean that the act itself is not sinful. We are all sinners, straight and gay, and no sin, not homosexual sex or anything else, taints the rest of the person to where they are not loved by God. I know many good, holy Christians who are gay, but I still believe that when they have sex with a person of the same gender, they are committing a sin. It does not follow from the goodness and holiness of individual gay people who we might know that the physical act is not in fact sinful. Everyone, straight and gay, should know how much they love God, and should strive with all their power to eliminate sex that turns them into objects, and ignores the creative power God gave us and by which we participate in Creation and are made in his image.
Sorry, I meant “should know how much God loves them,” not “how much they love God.” Oops!
Peter,
You said “it really seems that nobody can give me answers to my questions,”, which sounds to me a bit like a request for people to answer your questions, which is fair enough. So here’s my best attempt, poking back through the thread to find your questions, I see:
1. “How can one read Genesis 19 and then tell me that it’s ok to be homosexual?”
Easily. In fact, I’m mystified as to how you can read that chapter and take from it that homosexuality is not okay, per se.
2. “Does God love homosexual people?”
If she in fact exists, then doubtless. But I think you meant this as rhetorical, because you immediately answered it.
3. (re your hypothetical aggressive son) “I couldn’t just say it’s ok because God made him that way, right?”
Well, you could. But probably it wouldn’t serve you super well in your relationships.
4. “Why did God create men and women, if he wanted men to love men and/or women to love women? He could have just created one form and have them love each other.”
Well, we’re obviously in radically different places, since I don’t necessarily even think that God created men and women. But I’m willing to step inside that idea for a moment and try to answer. There are lots of possible answers. The simplest, perhaps, is that maybe God created men and women because she wanted most of them to have loving committed sexual relationships with members of the other sex, but that also she wanted some of them to have loving committed sexual relationships with the same sex.
5. “Why did God tell us to be fruitful and multiply and if so, why would he create men and women in a way (as homosexuals) that makes it impossible for them to fulfil his wishes? Wouldn’t that be somehow weird?”
This is a bit confusing. You ask “Why” and then immediately “And if so”. If we break the question up, then my guess is that God told people to be fruitful and multiply because he thinks people are awesome and wants more of them.
You touch on something interesting in this question: Why did God seemingly create some people in such a way that they cannot fully carry out all the wonder and beauty and glory that being human is meant to be about? I mean … what about severely autistic people? This example comes immediately to mind for me because I work as a professional with autistic children. I think probably nearly always the answer to this question involves us changing our perspective rather than trying to change the person in question so that they can somehow fulfill what we believe God’s plan for their life is. Any other answer becomes too profoundly arrogant–we begin to play God.
6. “If God really wanted homosexuality, why can homosexuals not naturally reproduce?”
I think we touched on this above. But lots of people can’t reproduce. I mean there are all sorts of genetic conditions which lead to inability to reproduce. So are you saying that God really doesn’t want all these conditions? But there’s a beautiful verse in the Bible about how God made the lame, the blind, etc. And what about that lovely story about the blind man who Jesus healed and they asked about why he was blind–and Jesus said “So God’s glory could be revealed in him”. That is: God wanted him to be blind. If we think of blind people, or autistic people, or homosexual people, as somehow less than God’s best plan, or less than able to fulfill God’s best plan, or as a result of the broken ness of the world in general, I think we cheat ourselves and them of a lot of happiness, beauty, wonder, glory, etc., and risk being profoundly arrogant.
7. and 8. “Could it be that we live in a fallen world due to Adam and Eve’s mistake and now as a consequence we do not live in paradise anymore, we live in a world that is certainly not the way that God intended it to be?
Could it be that a lot of stuff is going wrong in this world and God NEVER EVER wanted it to be that way, but we deciced to not follow him but rather our own will?”
I answered these in my answers to questions 5 and 6.
9. “But, the general idea behind sex is reproduction or not?”
Nope. But here perhaps we might just profoundly disagree. For me reproduction is awesome, but sex is way awesomer. It’s such a beautiful, profound, amazing intimate sharing with another human being, regardless of reproduction.
There. That’s my honest best attempt. Hope you feel like someone has attempted to answer your questions =).
benjamin,
thank you for making an effort and answering my questions. Appreciate that!!
Very welcome =)
Regarding the Genesis 2 argument. She says Eve was made as a suitable partner for Adam, but that does not mean the male/female relationship was a prescription for all marriages, or sexual relationships. However, that only makes sense if you don’t look at verse 24 where Genesis clearly says that this arrangement is the reason that a MAN will leave his father and mother and be united with his WIFE. That verse seems to make it pretty clear that this relationship was meant to be a model for all future sexual and marriage relationships as being between a man and a woman.
And, furthermore, the procreative aspect of marriage is the means by which we participate in the act of Creation, and therefore one of the two ways in which we were made in God’s image. To be made in the image of the Creator is an incredible gift, to throw that away only hurts us and prevents us from living to our fullest potential!
what do we do with the other Biblical models that are far more prevalent than one man one woman? Only leaders in NT need do that and God Himself gave people many wives over and over. Can’t play that card as the Biblical directive. It is not the model for the BULK of the Bible. You can only read what is there and not insert your own bias. The Romans did it and we still do it. that is why Paul wrote Romans and we STILL get caught up in our own cultural biases today as the rules that God holds. Nope. Man’s view of the translation. Marriage equality!
Thank you for your ministry. It is so very much needed by us in the community. As is your advocacy; please continue to help, love, and serve god. May God’s grace be with you always.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
This is a story that repeats over and over and over again, and it’s why everyone needs to come out: Until you knew an actual person who is gay, you had only preconceptions and misinformation to go on. But when you knew someone as a full human being–including that she’s a lesbian–you understand that we’re all on this path together. Thank you for speaking out and speaking up.
god sure is obsessed with genitals
kind of makes private parts seem super special when an omnipotent being worries so much what are collective genitals are up to.
Love you Kathy. Keep loving people, embracing them, and speaking up for those who are too hurt at times to speak up for themselves. I was stripped of my committee positions and roles in a Christian Reformed Church at one time for attending openly as a gay man with my faith-centered Catholic boyfriend. It was like being kicked out of one’s home. This community that spoke of love and inclusion suddenly gave me and the man who shared his faith with me, and mine with him, the shaft. I had the love and support of Christian family and friends at that very hurtful time and don’t know where I would have looked for spiritual support had I not been blessed with them. I imagine that you are that support for others. God bless your ministry.
-Christian S.
God loves the sinner – it doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. Of course homosexuals can be Christians, because ALL Christians are sinners. Of course it is terrible that a woman would turn her back on a dear friend because that friend is gay. Yet it is also possible to love and support homosexual friends, as I do mine, without condoning the homosexual act, which ultimately objectifies humans, turns them into play-things for pleasure, and ignores the creative power through which we image God.
Caitlin, please read my commentary on Romans 1 on my blog http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/?p=338 I think it is at least enough evidence to see that GOD and Paul are NOT talking about homosexuality here. It is about having known God and turning you back on Him (sin) ends up in culturally unacceptable (NOT sin) behavior to a Jew and the result of having known Him and walking away is further sin (v 28). If you would just read with Bible and concordance and look at the original language, you could not possibly miss this. We are a lazy lazy church and do not do the work . I think 5% of the population is worth the look. Invest some time to see thta ther is a very solid view that you may not see.
“Yet it is also possible to love and support homosexual friends, as I do mine, without condoning the homosexual act, which ultimately objectifies humans, turns them into play-things for pleasure, and ignores the creative power through which we image God.”
Caitlin, can you please explain to me how “the homosexual act” turns people into “play-things” any more than “the heterosexual act?” Please re-read your statements and correct me if I’m wrong, that you are coming from a position of moral superiority and arrogance,
Are you so invest in what genitals somebody has that you couldn’t possibly love somebody that doesn’t have a penis? Seriously. I think if you examine the binary concepts of gender you are working with here you’ll realise that the gender difference is not as stable as all that.
But back to what you said – how on earth do you come to the conclusion that homosexual sex objectifies somebody and more than heterosexual sex? That makes no sense to me.
Do you attempt to procreate every time you have heterosexual sex? I would think not. Then why do you imply that all heterosexual sex is for the purpose of “creative power” that reflects God? That’s clearly not the case, since not all heterosexual sex is procreative. JUST AS homosexual sex cannot be procreative, nor can/is all heterosexual sex. So to argue from that point caves in pretty quickly.
And how does gay sex turn people into “play-things” any more than straight sex?
The argument that straight sex ‘glorifies god’ etc etc is unbelievably arrogant, and completely unrealistic. It is just another myth perpetrated by a patriarchy that intends to sustain male-dominant heterosexual sex as the gold standard. Aligning it with god and glorifying it in such a way is the ultimate, most unbelievable way this is reinforced. It is completely flawed, lacks logic, and it’s agenda is unbelievably transparent.
The Bible is thoroughly a man-made document. The Old Testament is full of barbarism, no god worth following would pen such evil laws. I challenge the Christians who gather here to read Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus, you don’t have the courage of your faith to read a real scholar’s decades of research. He clearly demonstrates how the scribes made literally thousands of errors while copying the countless variations of the New Testament. We haven’t a clue as to what the original New Testament actually said. It was cobbled together from innumerable texts.
Where do you get these ignorant people to recite their uninformed drivel in front of the camera?
So, you’ve read one book and believe that you know with 100% accuracy what “really happened”? I’m currently working on a Master’s Degree that involves many theology and history classes; my specialization is the transmission of manuscripts. Bart Ehrman’s book represents the views of one Biblical scholar. The transmission of the manuscripts of the Bible is, however, something still debated in the scholarly community. In fact, we some of the original papyrii of some of the texts of the New Testament, notably the letter’s of Paul. Many Christians, both lay Christians and scholars, readily understand that the Bible is a man-made document – the words of God in the mouths of men – but believe that it was nevertheless inspired by the Holy Spirit. No matter how it came together to take its final form by the fifth century, this is an article of faith, one which a person can accept or reject but has no bearing on his or her intelligence or understanding of the process of the canonization of Biblical texts. As for “innumerable texts,” that’s a bit far-flung: other Christian writings of the first few centuries demonstrate to us the content and names of many writings that did not make it into the final canon. There were certainly a fair number, and also a fair number of copies of each holy document, but let’s remember a) how small the Christian community was, b) the even smaller community within that Christian community that was even literate and able to make use of these texts and c) the expense involved in producing and sending documents at that time. Furthermore, we can see from comparing writings from across the Christian world that still exist today that the various versions of each document of scripture were actually remarkably similar. I would challenge you, Peter, to go ahead and read a number of scholarly opinions on the matter before forming your own judgment. When dealing with history from such an early period, there is a lot of room for scholarly disagreement! For many Christians, including myself, the process doesn’t really matter, because God can work even in the minutiae of manuscript transmission. I know a lot of scholars of very high educational attainment who disagree strongly on the nature and validity of the Bible – it’s something that is up for debate amongst educated, well-informed people. As for why you posted here, I’m not sure, because the speaker in this video didn’t rely too heavily on Biblical quotation.
Peter, is it often assumed that Christians are not as smart as others and simply believe something vague. Give some of us a bit more credit than that. I have been a Christian for over 25 years and approached it from a questioning stance–I came out of college with eng’g and physics education. I have approached my faith eyes open, ears open, mind open and heart open. To label my knowledge and study and decisions as “uninformed drivel” is dismissive of the way I have made this choice. And, Peter, I am quite far from ignorant. When we have opposite opinions does not make the other ignorant.
Hey, I really don’t want to argue, or debate, or anything like that…I’m just asking because I’m curious, and want to know more. Something just draws me to love on homeless in our city(Atlanta), and it blows my mind that people automatically assume that since a person is homeless, they obviously don’t know Jesus. So I think I may understand where you’re battle lies with many Christians, whom think that because someone is gay, they don’t know Jesus. And I believe I understand how you can be a homosexual Christian, in the same way that some people claim Christianity, but still struggle with excessive alcohol, or lust/adultery, or hatred, or any other sin you want to add in there. I understand we all have our struggles, our issues, and sin problems that don’t just “go away” as soon as we accept Christ. But here is my question: why do you say that homosexuality is not a sin? Like I said, I’m not arguing or anything, I’m just really wanting to know. Thank you so much for answering.
Ken,
this seems like a reasonable gently put question. Alas–I don’t say that homosexuality is not a sin, so I can’t really answer, except with another question–why do you mean when you say “sin”? It seems to me that perhaps as the church is transitioning from modern to postmodern, the way she frames her understanding of sin might be changing as well. To me the word has a lot of baggage which makes it decreasingly useful in covnersation. Using in the most helpful possible sense, perhaps, might be something like letting it mean something akin to “unuseful”, or perhaps “dysrelational” might also work.
With these latter meanings, it seems to me that homosexuality can’t really be identified as a sin per se. But that’s altogether postmodern of me–I think it is perhaps most useful to define sin locally/specifically, and narratively, rather than generally and by-a-code.
thoughts?
OMG! Adam Hood is the hottest stuff since Lady Gaga. All of us gays in Chicago love him! Talk about Oxymoron – I mean HELLO Mr. gay scarf!
I ain’t got nothing against christians and I don’t think y’all are dumb as some previous poster mentioned. Ehreebody gotta believe (or beweave if you are a drag queen) in something, right? For me, I believe that the cosmos is far too complex, yet so simplified that the capacity for the human spirit to see past it’s own ego and into the truths of this world are irrelevant and that is because ego is the truth. Just as much as y’all want me to burn in hell, I just want to live my life and pay less taxes cause I have less rights. Those buddhists we’re right, as life is about suffering. It’s about not being afraid to die rather than fearing the inevitable. Just as you and I will pass, so shall this world as it isn’t permanent. Whomever or whatever made it and us decided that the definitive pandered much more towards our ego than the infinitive.
Ego may be thought to be bad, but truthfully it is the one good that can drive us toward zen.
I’m certainly not going to change anyone’s mind, but I thought I’d at least say that I don’t think the issue with the Roman Centurion is so cut and dry. While it’s certainly possible that pais was used for sexual relationships with a servant, it’s a stretch to say that that’s what the word MUST mean.
I just did a quick word study on pais in the Bible. To suggest that this word must refer to a sexual relationship is to ignore how it’s used (about 80 times) all throughout the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) where it’s best rendered “child” or “servant” without any sexual connotation.
This is the problem with cultural arguments. There may be some validity to them and they can shed some light on the discussion, but unless they take into context the greater culture of the day (in this case all the uses of pais that DON’T refer to sexual servant/master relationships) they fall short and provide only half the story.
Granted, my word study is only accounting for the Bible (specifically the Septuagint). However this text was THE text for Greek speaking Jews (and eventually Christians) and provides us with valuable insight into how these words were understood and used during that time period.
As I said as the top, I’m just not convinced that the Centurion was in a sexual relationship with his servant simply because the word “pais” was used.
Just some thoughts.
I know what God means in the Bible.
You may think you know what God means, but that’s just your interpretation. Other people have their interpretations. That’s why the same Bible is used by folks from the Westboro Baptist Church, members of the Family Research Council, the church down the street from me, members of the Ku Klux Klan, the church around the corner from the White House, and you. We all use the same text, but interpret it differently.
What makes your interpretation the right one? What makes you so sure? ‘Cause I’ll tell ya what: Those folks I just listed? They’re sure, too. They know–KNOW–with the same amount of certainty that their interpretation of the Bible is the right one, just as surely as you know yours is.
If one thing is for sure, it’s that nothing is “for sure.” So if you think you know exactly what God meant by something, you can be sure that there are others who know–KNOW–that you’re wrong.
Can you live with that?
I can see that there is quite a bit of response to this video, but I will NOT jump into the fray. I just want to say this: I teared up while watching this video because of the love that was clearly shown. Regardless of what people believe or think they know, I heard Jesus in your words.
Instead of spewing hate, lets try showing love. To those “Christians” that think you have it all figured out, why don’t you take a moment to think about the grace God has shown you?
What an inspirational woman. As a young gay christian I’ve been struggling for a while with my own religious identity (feeling secure in my sexual identity but still wishing to find a way to stay true to Christian beliefs). Although the close analysis of scripture was really enlightening I obviously still need to put a lot of personal work into finding answers for myself – but simply hearing Kathy speak was incredible. This is without a doubt a message of hope for – what is an admittedly small – minority of gay christians and those who support them. What is equally impressive is the love expressed in these videos; I think it’s testament to whose reasoning is most solid and whose moral viewpoint is clearest in that Kathy makes no attack on the opposing viewpoint – and rightly so. I don’t need a conservative individual with social or religious views that – I feel – are outdated and misguided to validate me as a human being. For me this message communicated the need for (and entitlement to) a sense of self-worth and empowerment for gay christians – we are as WORTHY of God’s love as any others. Thankyou so much for this Kathy. x
Hi,
I just wanted to say a quick word about my opinion on gays and lesbians.
In the Bible, there are several verses that refer to homosexuality as being a sin:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
But you know what? God is a god of LOVE. He loves us no matter what! There is no ultimate sin. sin is sin. All sin is evil and deserving of death. However, Jesus died on the cross to take that punishment upon himself! Though we were deserving of death, He took the punishment for us because of His CRAZY LOVE for us!
We were/are all sinners. When we surrender our lives to Christ, he cleans us, makes us “white as snow”. Everyone deserves death… but when we fall before the cross, he takes OUR sin upon himself. I was addicted to pornography for four years. Two years into the addiction I decided that I wanted to FULLY follow Christ with my EVERYTHING. But I was still addicted. It took two years before I fully surrendered my entire life to Christ. I could have never done it alone, but through His Love I was freed of my addicting sin.
You see… sin is sin… sin is evil… but Jesus still loves us… and is constantly chasing us, calling for us… and when we turn to Him, he cleans us. But a lot of the time we’re not willing to let go of our sin… but you know what? He still Loves us anyways. And as we seek Him more and more, He works through us and changes us. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But it is just as much of a sin as lying, or stealing, or cursing, or pornography, or murder, or etc. And when we come to Christ, we are all sinners with sin upon our shoulders, and no matter what it is, He forgives! So, I believe that homosexuals can become christians, for sure! And that just like with all sins, God will lovingly convict us and show us where we have not fully surrendered to Him.
I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But it is just as much of a sin as pornography. And I know that I was delivered from that sin after I had accepted Christ as my savior. And in the same way, a gay or lesbian person can accept Christ in the state they are in, and through His Love and Mercy, be made free of their sin, just as I was made free of pornography, or as another was made of drugs, etc.
God LOVES, and that’s what we are called to do. I know a couple of gay guys, and I have two choices: condemn them or Love them. What would Jesus do? He would Love them with a CRAZY GOD LOVE! And that’s what I’m gonna do! I’m gonna love them and show them that they are loved! That there is a God in heaven who is crazily in Love with them and wants them to come home!
1 Corinthians 6:11 – “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
God is LOVE and he is chasing after the lost with His crazy LOVE. And no matter what sin they may be involved in, He Loves them and is waiting with open arms to bring them back home. We were lost… but now are found… were blind… but now we see. God loves us and Loves us and through His CRAZY LOVE He can change us.
GOD LOVES. GOD FORGIVES. GOD CHANGES. GOD ROCKS!
Hebrews 8:12
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
“God LOVES, and that’s what we are called to do. I know a couple of gay guys, and I have two choices: condemn them or Love them.”
Hayden, you have a third choice as well: LISTENING to them. They are but two of us in the LGBTIQ community.
And (I predict) their testimony will be essentially the same as the rest of our testimonies: being gay is the way we ARE. It’s a state of being. You can’t turn it on or off like a light switch or even as a valve on a water pipeline flowing full. And it determines who (and what gender) we are attracted to. I’m long since done with trying to become heterosexual. It just isn’t possible and it affects one’s mental health and not in a good way.
Is this a joke? I am BLOWN AWAY by the fact that we have now come so short of the Gospel we once preached. The Scriptures teach very plainly that homosexuality is a sin (1 Corinthians 6:9). In fact, Romans 1:24-27 refers to homosexual lusts as “sexually impure”, “degrading to their bodies”, “shameful” and “unnatural”. It is possible that verse 27 even describes the introduction of STD’s as a result of this type of sexual “perversion” (not that it is the only way it’s introduced, of course). The reality is that God loves those who battle homosexual desires just as much as anyone who battles any other type of sin. Kathy, what I think you’re doing that is dangerous, not just in my opinion, but according to 1 John 1:8-10 and Romans 1:25 is that you are teaching people that homosexuality is not a sin. I have many friends who struggle with homosexuality, but I also have friends who struggle with fornication, adultery, lying, backbiting, etc. And I’ve taken a shot at a few of these actions myself!
But, the question is this: are these sins that must be confessed to God in order to receive forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9, or are they no longer sins, because I’m a professing Christian or because I feel like I can’t help it? The truth is, all of us do battle sin in our lives, but God’s will is to help us to overcome these sins, not because we’ll go to hell, but because the “wages of sin is death”. Meaning wherever sin is, there will be death, whether spiritual, physical or relational. For example, the Bible says in Galatians 6:6-8 that we are not to allow ourselves to be deceived (believe a lie) by thinking we can “sow” toward our sinful desires and not receive a harvest of “corruption” or decay. In Luke 15, the prodigal son left his father, not the other way around. It is possible to receive Christ and pursue a sinful lifestyle, and by doing so, leave the Lord (1 Timothy 4:1-2; Hebrews 6:4-6). In other words, God will never leave you, but this isn’t the mafia! You can leave Him! King Solomon was raised having relationship with God, but he allowed sin to remain in his life and at the end of his life he built altars to the gods of his wives and lit incense to them! Should we say that because he was the great King Solomon, and that because his writings are in the canon of Scripture that he did not sin??? Absolutely not. In fact, God was angry with Solomon and wished to remove him from the throne, but because he had promised his father, David, that he would always have an heir on the throne of Israel, He instead took MOST of the kingdom away from him (all but two tribes). God doesn’t play with sin, because of how it destroys our lives. That is why the Bible says, “All have sinned, and fallen short of the Glory of God (Romans 3:23).” Sin causes us to leave God’s intended purpose for our lives, and in doing so, limits the glory that God desires to receive from us doing exactly what He designed for us to do and be. Jesus didn’t die to save us from Hell (only), but the Bible says, “You will call His name Jesus: for He will save His people from THEIR sins.” Don’t tell people that because they received Jesus Christ as the sacrifice of their sins that they can live in complete opposition to His Word and be ok. Stop studying Scripture with the intent on “affirming” those who are stuck in sin. When you do, you are seeking to change the truth of God’s Word into a lie. Dangerous ground. Instead, tell those who battle homosexuality, that God still loves them, and if they received Christ, they are saved, but now they must submit to Him as Lord and forsake the sins that they have confessed. That they must not have even a hint of sexual immorality in their lives (Ephesians 5:3) just as every other Christian is instructed. They must be taught that they are to “present their bodies to God” in total submission, and have their minds “renewed” to experience transformation, NOT that they are ok, just they way they are. If that doesn’t cut if for any other Christian, it doesn’t cut it for those who battle homosexuality.
Ray,
Have you even TALKED to one of us gay men or a lesbian? A bisexual person? A transgendered person? Without them having bought into your idea of where homosexuality (the status of being anything but heterosexual) fits into the scheme of things.
Nice of you to dig up Romans 1:24-27 to prove that our natural biological state of being is “sexually impure”, “degrading to their bodies”, “shameful” and “unnatural.” And what is our natural state of being, that is, having in our biological systems stirred-up or dormant homosexual desires (i.e., sexual lusts, romantic desires, affectational and emotional attractions) and/or transgendered identity (having a brain wired like that of a person of the opposite sex to such a degree that one identifies WITH the opposite sex), is to you an unnatural perversion! Get this into your spirit: NATURE DOES NOT MAKE UNNATURAL LIVING THINGS.
And don’t be afraid of us. Life is too short.
People s opinions can not represent who and what God truly stands for, we are making a horrible mistake if we think that our assumptions,( as, so called Christians or none Christians ) will change any out come of God’s judgment concerning our behavior, if we don’t take the time to get to know what God truly expects from us. God loves us and wants to communicate his love to us. He’s not some disconnected higher being, he is as close as our next breath. Ms. Kathy, the lady in the interview is clearly missing something important concerning the revelation of what God is saying in his word or his intent for his creation/people, she is assuming somethings that are incorrect. We have got to stop looking and comparing ourselves with other people and start seeking out what God is truly saying to us before it is too late, time is running out.PEACE
Elaine, and why is the Holy Spirit that speaks to you more valid or right than one that speaks to me? And yes, I do think some of the translations by men are not correct. I think they are DEEPLY biased. What has happened to the word “arsenekoitai” since the mid 60′s is NOT God, that is man’s bias. Perhaps I want to go back to what I see there verses really say and cut off all this bias? And then if I say God and the Spirit are leading me and others, the way they lead Luther, which of us is right? Maybe we need to listen to a new(old) thought and talk it out rather than discount other-thinkers b/c they are uncomfortable to contend with.
I cannot imagine a person getting in the midst of LGBT Christians and denying they see fruit and Spirit. It is there that your theology will be challenged. All I could depend on then was what i DID know about God, Jesus and the Spirit. The rest ,I listened for .
Kathy,
I read somewhere that both St Jerome and Martin Luther said that arsenokoitai meant “male prostitute.”
Pacem.
Ms. Kathy I must respectfully disagree, since starting this journey with God I have heard a lot of opinion from a lot of people in and out of the church on a lot of different subjects and it can be confusing, to the point you don’t know what to think, which would include this subject, there is only one truth and that is God s truth, God s standard for living, please read the whole bible. Jesus loved the person, but he said ” Go sin no more” meaning go and no longer partake in that activity, and a lot of those that received that word from Jesus were obedient, and they received their new life without that act of sin with great joy, you do realize that sin could be anything, it could be gluttony, self righteousness,or drug abuse. Ms.Kathy, if your holy ghost is leading you to encourage an individual to continue in an activity that God saids is wrong that spirit is not of God, but we are living in the End Times and this profile does fit the mind set of some of those that will
be a sign of the END TIME.
The character of God is holier beyond anything we as humans can understand and ignoring this aspect of God is one of the most common deceptive attacks used by the enemy of our souls. Every biblical description of God and heaven emphasis the holiness of God above everything else. One’s subjective experience should never trump the objective clarity of the scriptures which are our only trustworthy compass. How do we know sin ? Kathy means well but has based her Christianity on very subjective experiences Every human that met God personally in the bible were literally shaken by the purity of God and shook with fear. God reached out to love to them but he has never lowered his standard to our level of morality. Jesus so many times warns of people one day standing before him and finding themselves on the wrong side even they are nice, religious, doing many works because they did their own thing. Remember that our sin put Christ on the cross and lessening it in any degree mocks his death on the cross and is the ultimate slap against God. If we are so good then Jesus died in vain since our goodness is enough. I came to the conclusion at the age 18 that one day I would stand before the reality of God and popular opinion and subjective experience would not make that reality any less real no matter how many pastors and leaders sided with sin. Romans speaks of the process of a society and individuals that ignore the rule of God and how God shows his judgment by turning them over to their own passions. God’s love sets free from sin and true love warns a friend if it costs the speaker their personal freedom soon to come in the form of hate crimes against Christians who refused to comprised on the presentation of Truth. Love is in its truest definition is to risk one’s reputation at the peril of telling the truth. Paul warns us in that a time will come when people will not longer tolerate truth but instead find teachers that fit their lifestyle.
I will ask this same question over again. What makes the Holy Spirit you hear more authentic than the one I hear? To call the conclusion I come to “subjective” is interesting. There is fruit in my life, in the life of others God uses me with, blessings in my life, peace and a passion that drives that is not from me–and yet it is seen as something not from God, but from me. Maybe the Gospel I believe in really is the one that is freedom and love. And, I have risked reputation to tell the truth. The tables can be turned with a different POV. Maybe?
Just a little thought as I revisit this post:
Judgment needs to be left to God. When we go home to Him, we only have to answer for ourselves. Living a life of judging others isn’t going to win us any brownie points. We will be judged as individuals, and the way we treated people, no matter who they are, or what they do. So, before throwing rocks in glass houses, consider looking in the mirror and asking some really hard questions.
We are called upon to live “Christ-like.” I never read a red-lettered Jesus quote condemning anyone. In fact, when townspeople wanted to stone a prostitute, (or adulteress, whatever translation you like) he pretty much said “look in the mirror first, and if you have no sin in your past, go ahead, throw a stone…..” And nobody did. And that’s how we should be living every day of our lives. None of us are any better than anyone else. So ask yourself what Jesus would do before condemning anyone. Jesus was a teacher, so listen to the teacher, who was a teacher of LOVE, not hate.
I heard this great quote once….I can’t remember who said it. “You know you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out he hates the same people you do.”
Kathy,
I didn’t really want to get too deep into this, but I’ve been following the comments with interest since I posted above. You asked a couple of times now, “What makes the Holy Spirit you hear more authentic than the one I hear?”. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but in my estimation, that’s not really the issue.
For me, the issue is Scripture and what it says. Please don’t misunderstand me. Hearing from the Holy Spirit is important, but it’s subjective. This is why we’ve been given the Scriptures, our rule and standard for faith. That’s the medium God chose to speak to us through and that’s what we must align ourselves with.
You interpret these Scriptures in one fashion, and I interpret them differently. At some point here, one of us is wrong. I’m probably wrong in some areas (though I try not to be) and you are probably wrong in some areas (though you try not to be).
For me, that’s the issue. It’s trying to come to terms with what the Bible has to say about this topic (and while the Holy Spirit does lead us in this process, I’m talking about what the Bible says, not what we perceive the Spirit to be saying to us personally). So, I applaud your desire to go to the text and look at what it says. I just don’t agree with your conclusions.
I realize the video above is a brief overview of them and there’s more to your points, but I believe there’s more to the texts in question here. And to be honest, I think you are reading quite a bit into them.
With that said, I fear that this may not be the proper place to discuss the intricacies of the Greek language (especially when we probably won’t change each other’s mind). I guess my point is that I believe that the Scriptures have something to say on this issue and that truth can be derived from it. That’s why many Christian post here with such certainty about what is “sin” or “truth” or “right/wrong”. I fear your response about hearing from the Spirit takes the discussion away from the text and onto subjective experiences that really can’t be questioned.
I hope that makes sense and I hope the dialogue can continue (even if we disagree).
Thanks,
Hi Kathy, I’ll start off by saying that I disagree with you. I had a good look into the scriptures and I wasn’t convinced by the “Gay Christian” movement at all. In response to your 7 scriptures:
1. Obviously, that God made Eve for Adam isn’t a particularly strong argument against homosexuality. but it’s certainly not an argument for it. God didn’t “find” Eve, He created Eve. God ordained the first human relationship, and it was heterosexual.
2. I agree that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for more than homosexuality. That doesn’t make “committed homosexual relationships” acceptable.
3. Tow’ebah is the word translated as “detestable”. The word “shakab” (translated “to lie with”) means to have sexual relations. Leviticus 18:22 is saying that “shakab” with a man as with a woman is “tow’ebah”, an abomination, or as you put it, a form of idolatry. It doesn’t just cover temple sex, it’s normal sexual relations with a man as with a woman.
4. I agree that this is about shrine prostitution, not necessarily homosexuality. But, just because something else is a sin, doesn’t mean homosexuality isn’t.
5. Reading a non-existent context into a passage is poor exegesis. Idolatry is one example in that passage, this is another one. It’s unfortunately wordy, but it’s there. The Greek (exekauthesan en te orexei auton eis allelous) literally means “burned in the lust towards fellow men”. There’s no extra context, and this passage is damning of homosexuality.
6. I agree here that “malakoi” is better translated as “effeminate” here (though the literal meaning is soft to the touch), but the connotation is towards homosexuality (and this is from a few 19th century lexicons, not post-1950s). However, arsenekoites literally means “one who beds with men”. The word comes from two root words, “arren”, meaning “a man” and “koite”. Koite has the literal meaning of “a bed”, but infers cohabitation or the marriage bed. So an “arsenekoites” is a man who lives or beds with another man as you would with a woman.
7. Same thing here, except only arsenekoites is used.
Your extra remarks: You complain that people read too far into things, but you’ve just done the same. In none of the lexicons I could find, was “pais” listed as a sexual servant. It means a child, a servant or a slave. There’s some usage of “pais” as a junior sexual partner in extra-biblical texts, but that doesn’t suggest to me that this applies to the story of the centurion. While Matthew uses pais a few times, Luke uses it once but mostly opts for “doulos” (servant or slave), perhaps to avoid the connotation (Matthew was a Jew writing to Jews, who wouldn’t have used pais in this context, whereas Luke was a Greek doctor writing to Greeks, who would have known the connotation). Nonetheless, that a word can be a euphemism isn’t an argument that it’s always used that way, especially when there’s no support for it within the text.
My own view is that homosexuality is a sin, but, like all sinners, Christ offers love and salvation. I know some guys from the ex-gay movement who are thankful for the freedom they have in Christ. I have no trouble with homosexuals and in fact have a few Christians and non-Christian homosexual friends. Do I love them and accept them as the creations of God they are? Definitely. But do I accept their sin? Not at all. I pray for them, I love them and accept them, as I am called to do, but I do not accept sin, and no Christian should.
Erik and Pat, we disagree and that is okay. As God leads and blesses each of our lives, may we listen to Him, be lead by the Spirit and reflect Jesus. I live by Isaiah 58. As I serve, He will guide and supply. When God plants something deeply in a person, you just keep going forward. And yes, I do believe a shift is coming in the church and i believe a revival will come from the GLBT Christian community , the very ones you deny the authenticity of. Put yourselves near in amongst them and see how your theology holds up. To presume anyone is exempt from the grace and love of God for something they were born into does not line up with the Gospel. Being a homosexual is not a sin. When you reject their orientation, you reject them. Never fool yourselves on this one. Consider reading my blog for another view. Six minutes of video is quite restrictive. But, in the end, I will never convince anyone. It is the Spirit. Again, blessings on your as you walk in His will for your lives.
Disagreeing is one thing, but I’m not sure that the following comments are fair:
“the very ones you deny the authenticity of”
“To presume anyone is exempt from the grace and love of God”
“When you reject their orientation”
My comments (and I believe Pat’s) were in relationship to your handling of Scripture. Neither of us brought up the issues of what “they were born into” as you suggest. There seems to be a disconnect in the discussion here. The bottom line is that in my assessment, you have made some leaps in your interpretive process on these passages. Pat has done a good job of pointing them out. Instead of reacting to those points, you’ve resorted to sweeping generalizations of what you perceive are my (and Pat’s) beliefs.
Just because I disagree with your hermeneutic doesn’t mean any of the statements I’ve quoted above are true. I’m surprised with these statements because I don’t think anything I said or anything Pat said are worthy of that reaction. Especially considering Pat’s last paragraph where he seems to suggest that he has Christian homosexual friends–that doesn’t sound like any denial or exemption from grace to me (though I could be reading it wrong).
I’m going to bow out of the discussion now, because I don’t feel this is going to go anywhere productive. I’ll leave the last response for you. I just felt I needed to respond to the above statements as I feel they unfairly characterize my comments here.
If you belong to a church–particularly the Mormon church–you need to listen to this entire series:
http://thebertshow.com/2010/06/29/listener-jeremys-sister-is-marrying-his-ex-boyfriend/
In creation, God gave the charge to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. Everything thing God created on earth has the ability to be fruitful and multiply. Humans, animals, plants, etc. Homosexuality seems to go against what the Creator’s intentions for this world are. We are supposed to conform to what the creator has designed us to be, not Him conform to what we think we are supposed to be. That is the nature of sin and rebellion, that we just want to “do it our way” and that covers every area of life, not just homosexuality.
I have several issues with your line of reasoning. First, we have successfully covered the earth. That command has quite handily been fulfilled, to the point where OVERpopulation is now an issue.
—
Second, if “Everything thing God created on earth has the ability to be fruitful and multiply” then are you implying that people who are sterile are not God’s creations? Because that’s what it sounds like to me. In addition, if we accept your interpretation that the command to multiply applies universally to every individual, why then are monks and nuns not living contrary to your interpretation of God’s will? How about couples that choose not to procreate?
—
Third and finally, your argument is based on the assumption that same-sex attraction is not natural. I would advise you to take a look at the other animals God created, not just humans. Penguins, dolphins, primates, and many more exhibit same-sex attractions or behaviors.
I think I have to leave this conversation. It’s just to depressing hearing from so many people who are so ignorant in this area.
Here’s my final comment: http://blackingoutthefiction.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/i-think-youre-a-queer/
Thanks to everyone who has been encouraging. Peace out.
Kathy,
This is such a touchy subject. I am a christian. I have gay friends that I love like family. As a christian my heart aches when I think of loved ones that may not make it to heaven. What could it hurt for someone being Gay. They are not hurting anyone. they are good people with good hearts and some even love the Lord. We dont understand all of Gods ways. But I can not deny scripture. there is only one way to enter the kingdom of heaven. Here is where I differ from most. I wake up every single day and I sin. somethings I do everyday. I strive to get better. I dont know if these people are going to go to hell. I know its a sin but I know everyone sins. I know lots of christians that smoke and how can you say that is any different than homosexuality? God hates all sin. God loves every human.
also, The sins that I do are what I guess ppl would call “little sins” that we all do. Some sins have been accepted in society. ( not that I think they should be)I really believe that all sins are equal in Gods eye because he judges the content of our hearts and we can not hide what is in our hearts from God. I feel sorry for the christian who thinks they are better than a homosexual christian. I guess what I would want to say to the homosexual christian is I hope you are right. I hope that God forgives you for your sin. It breaks my heart to think of anyone going to hell. Im sorry for your struggles. I know they cant be easy. Upon a conviction I had from God….He told me that He forgives me for the sin I commit but each time I commit that same sin He goes back to the cross again. It tore me to pieces to think of him walking back up to the cross so willingly saying forgive them father they no not what they do. there is no greater love than the love of christ. I believe if you are faithful and just to ask forgiveness of your sin that he is faithful and just to forgive you, just please dont crusify him to many times.
Christ died ONCE, for ALL sin.
—
I don’t believe that sexuality is sin, any more than left-handedness is sin. Yet the Bible was once used to justify the belief that left-handed people were evil and going to hell.
—
The most important thing to remember here is that the Bible’s been re-translated a lot. There’s a cultural, temporal, and physical gulf between now and when the ink first dried that stretches thousands of miles and thousands of years. Unless you believe that humans were uncorruptible when it comes to the power of religion, I think you’d have to acknowledge the possibility of some corruption of the text and it’s meanings, as well as the interpretations.
There was a time in my life that I was being heavily decieved. However I thought everything was clear to me at the time, and now looking back I see how truly blinded I was….I feel that Kathy might be in that same place right now. I pray that her eyes are opened and that she will be able to look back and realize the deceit. I just pray that it happens before she is used to deceive many more into feeling comfortable in their sin. Because it is true, we will be held accountable for those that we cause to stumble. In any area. The Bible is very clear about men and women exchanging natural relations for unnatural relations and sexual perversion being an abomination. There are many verses but if one is TRULY seeking to know Truth they will read for themselves from the Word of God and not just trust another human beings interpretation. Many malign the Word to make it suit their sinful lifestyles. God demonstrated what He intended when He created Adam and Eve. Please read for yourself. Study and pray for yourself. Maybe start by reading Romans1:18-32. There is no gray area on this one. It’s black and white. It’s forgivable and Christ CAN set you free! He did me.
I was once blinded as well, but after reading Leviticus 19:19 again, it has become clear to me: cotton-poly blends are an abomination and must be forsworn. It’s black and white. Maybe God will one day forgive me for daring to mix fibers against his will.
—
OR, maybe the Bible was written within the cultural context of it’s day, and perhaps we should learn a bit about that context before we make assumptions that our translations are infallible representations and that the verses are meant for us, today.
Yikes! A gamble I’m not willing to risk. Um yes some things in the Old Testament (esp. Leviticus) were meant for the Isrealites at that time so that they would be totally set apart from the pagan nations. But for us to pick and choose from New Testament scripture when it’s writen in such an obvious way of pertaining to all of His people everywhere, there should be no question. It’s just too much of a risk to assume that it’s not for us today. Generations come and go but His Word will last forever. Of course it is age appropriate and everything we need to know for that age, this age and the ages to come.