Last month’s videos highlighted four different perspectives on homosexuality. Together we discussed the topic and at times it got pretty heated and personal. I’m not too optimistic that this topic will lose it’s polarizing affect anytime soon, but I do hope that Christians will begin to treat the gay community with the respect and dignity they deserve. I think this is something we can work together on to change, regardless of your position on the “sin” argument. As you listen to Rio’s story below, I challenge you to ask yourself “Is this how I want the gay community to experience Christianity?”
After hearing Rio’s story, what do you think it would take to stop this kind of thing from happening in the future?
Am I too optimistic to think that we can stop the poor treatment of the gay community while still wrestling with the question of whether or not it’s a sin?
Rio is one of 16 young adults interviewed in The Outsider Interviews, a book I co-wrote with Jim Henderson and Todd Hunter. In the book we tell the stories behind the statistics published in the book unChristian, which revealed that young Americans have a negative perception of Christianity (no shock there). The book comes with a DVD that allows you to hear the stories firsthand as you read about them in the book.
The Outsider Interviews can be purchased at Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and in The Recycle Your Faith Store
ABOUT THE INTERVIEWEE: You can hear more about Rio in The Outsider Interviews
OTHER CLIPS BY: THE OUTSIDER INTERVIEWS
OTHER CLIPS ABOUT: Homosexuality
PURCHASE THIS CLIP: The Outsider Interviews
Great question: “Am I too optimistic to think that we can stop the poor treatment of the gay community while still wrestling with the question of whether or not it’s a sin?” I have been wrestling with that very question myself. I think we HAVE to stop the poor treatment of the gay community! Regardless of how one thinks regarding the sin issue, we are called to respond in love. Love covers a multitude of sins. Thanks for doing these interviews!
What a sweet girl! In this video she displayed many Christ-like characteristics, such as loving your enemies, despite the complete rejection she received from His following. I’m so glad she knows that God loves her despite what others have told her.
I know so many people who I respect as Christians that love people regardless if they are gay or not AND are not “afraid” to love friends and family enough to stay faithful to Scripture and confront them—just as I would confront someone that I know who is cheating on his wife or has a gambling problem etc..the difference is in this case one side says it’s sin and one doesn’t.
I do think when we normally hear the gay community speak out they tend to over-emphasize the fringe haters who call themselves Christians (Pharisees anyone?) OR they are quick to link a large group of Christians who do love homosexuals but will address the issue thus putting them all in the same category. Maybe this is because we all have a natural tendancy to want to defend ourselves or belong to something…a kinship…or a cause..not just homosexuality but anything…national patriotism, sports, jobs, money etc. Anything can become idolatry and shift the focus away from the root of the issue when we make it ultimate…including our sexuality.
There are a ton of Christians who do take this “war” up with homosexuality because it makes them feel better about their own sin or that somehow this issue is more important than the next. I’ve got a real problem with them and I have told many as such. Those He has chosen have been declared righteous before God not of their own doing or how good they are vs. the next guy but because of what He’s done for us…If our sole purpose is to enjoy fellowship with our Savior and show Him off to bring him Glory in EVERYTHING we do, don’t you think our perspective, wants, and needs would look much different?…instead we all spend a majority of our lives trying to put ourselves in the King’s rightful place and try to justify our own sin…every one of us. I am no different…we all have our own areas.
I love the girl in this interview and feel bad for her with so much confusion in her life…what I grieve is that I don’t remember her once say she dropped to her knees and dug into Scripture to see what the Creator of the universe intended for Good and what sin has done to the human race that has fractured all of it…perhaps even to the point that the person next store possibly was born with an attraction to the same sex. I have an attraction to women (I’m heterosexual) in sinful ways whether it’s my fault or not…I still have boundaries that God clearly speaks to for my ultimate Joy and His testimony…namely to stay faithful to my wife, be accountable for what I watch and surf on the net, etc. God cleary says that I’m responsible before Him in all things. More than that though, we should want to be transformed by Him (which is the new birth) to live for him not because we have to or need to but because we GET to! I believe we have to look at the seriousness of what the foundation of a Christ-follower truly looks like clearly BEFORE we navigate through these merky waters.
Above everything else if we each treasured Christ more I believe the Holy Spirit would come shining through making clear to all of us that it’s not about us…this is God’s story ultimately, not mine or yours, and He being perfectly Holy and Just unfathomably pursues his children as we still run from him.
Jeff, I really appreciate your honest words. It’s clear that you’ve spent some time seriously considering how we are to treat others in light of the story that God is writing. I’d like to point out, as someone who identifies both as Christian and as gay, that I don’t know anyone in my position who hasn’t spent years earnestly pursuing God’s intention for their life. Accepting myself as a lesbian and reconciling this to my faith and understanding of God took years and remains a process some 10 years after coming out. Without the clear direction of the Holy Spirit speaking into my life I would still be struggling to understand what my love for another woman meant for my life.
I also want to ask you to find a different analogy, something other than lusting after other women while being married. So often all things gay are boiled down to sex. But if I felt led to leave behind my orientation it wouldn’t be the sex that I would miss, it would be my loving companion, the woman with whom my heart resonates. Can you see the distinction and why that analogy feels sad to me and isn’t accurate? You see, the fruits of cheating on your wife is a destroyed relationship, or at least a very hurt wife, while the fruits of my relationship, though human in nature and prone to mistakes, isn’t hurt and destruction, it’s love and relationship.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Again, thank you for your earnest comments.
Lisa, really appreciate your follow-up. At some point physical intimacy is involved though right? We all know it is a small part of marriages etc even though it is intended to be very important!…when I hear you say you can take it or leave it that concerns me as it would for any straight couple–and there are a lot of women and some men say they could take it or leave it in their marriages too (Not Good!)…but we are talking about homosexuality specifically here…not the best of same gender friends. I have some awesome guy friends that I could be single and be even closer with. The difference is the kind of love I have for them is what I see talked about in Scripture as Phileo (friendship)–not the same kind of love along with Phileo namely Agape (Unconditional) and Eros (sexual) reserved for men and women in marriage. God’s best picture to describe his perfect Agape love for us is the picture of a man and woman in marriage.
My other thought is are you married to her? Obviously official Gay Marriage is hard to come by in most states so I know it’s not easy to do. So I’m interested to know if you are not married to her do you think that sex before marriage is what God intended (regardless of orientation)?
I still wonder though when you say it boils down to love and relationship who is defining it? You or God? I think it’s awesome that you’ve been deep into study and thought with this in Scripture for years and no doubt really struggled with it but when I see that response I immediately see “man-made” shining through..are we conforming God to us or are we conforming to Him? Both you and I have a default mode–religion (our heart is an idol factory) even though most people would say they hate the word religion…but we all fight building our own self religion. I have to constantly ask for forgiveness and repent of idols I create in many areas every day…a Christian’s life is a life of repentance don’t you think? Those haters out there who bash gays and are prejudice towards them are not of Christ’s heart and mind–in essence it’s religion they have built. On the other end of the spectrum, even though it doesn’t seem to hurt anyone when you have a committed same sex partner that seems so right is I believe doing something in direct oppostion to God’s love and the love he intended for us…so it’s still seems like your telling God that you define the rules…again whether you have a proclivity to it from birth or not. That’s what I meant before (sorry if it didn’t fit exactly) when I talked about cheating on my wife…we have proclivities to not do what God intended…that’s what I meant by that correlation.
Our life is an act of worship to Him in all we do whether we are talking about the sex part of relationships or not…I do believe sexual intimacy is an act of worship to Him, for the dual purpose of pleasure and pro-creation in marriage only for our protection, ultimate satifaction/joy and to further His purposes and bring Him Glory.
Curious to see what your thoughts are? Appreciate the discussion!–Jeff
Jeff,
I think you are jumping to some conclusions here. My comments about sex and companionship are meant to take emphasis off of sexuality and point toward the emotional/relational component of being gay. The physical intimacy between partners is important but what defines me as gay, in my mind, has less to do with physical intimacy and more to do with emotional intimacy. This may be different if you talk to a gay man, I am a woman afterall.
I also think you are off base when you claim after reading one comment I’ve posted on a random blog that my acceptance of myself as a Christian gay person is “man made”. Did I not make clear that I had studied, prayed, and sought the guidance of God? Did I not say that without the clear guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life I would continue to wrestle? In fact it was the clear and unambiguous (though I’ve considered it over and over again) direction of the Holy Spirit in my life that declared “You don’t have to be ashamed anymore”. I hope this message doesn’t sound angry, I’m not, but I am quite passionate about this. My experience of the Holy Spirit is valid and is not yours to question. Yet this experience does not stand alone. It is part of mountains of evidence and witnesses that God’s plan is not identical for each of us and that some of us are created different than most but that all of us are created in His image.
With respect to marriage, it’s true, in most states gay and lesbian people cannot be married. But it’s not the state’s endorsement that I need, it’s the blessing of God. State granted protections and responsibilities are important but they don’t make a relationship holy.
Hey Lisa, I didn’t mean to get you riled up…I hope you’re passionate and not angry. I know this seems to be going right at you which is weird to do in this forum especially when I’m not a close friend–the kind of friend I have come to appreciate the more I learn to lean into Christ–the kind of friend who can at least bring things to my attention or question me whether I like it or not but still loves me regardless.
I still feel like you’re minimizing the physical attraction part of it. If not then I don’t understand why you consider yourself gay. You may have an awesome girlfriend you’ve decided to be single with the rest of your life..ok I can understand…why not just be best friends?
You may totally disagree with me and that’s ok. I just want us both to make sure even though we may both have our opinions and/or interpretation of Scripture we can’t say the same thing about the Holy Spirit. If I say I follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in my life and you do to and we come to totally different conclusions (on big issues…not all issues like some religious people think on every little jot and tittle)…the reality is that God is not wrong and his opinion matters the most. He is the ultimate authority, is constant, has not changed his Word. I pray all the time that His Truth will be revealed in all things despite my fallen perspective. I’m not saying it’s easy to figure out –which is why I always get on my knees and ask Him to take me back to the cross for perspective and truth. I do know he’s not in the business of validating us along each of our journeys…that would be against his very character. All of us want him to fit into our lives the way that makes us happiest (can someone say Oprah-sim?) God is in the business of pursuing and rescuing us no matter where we are to be made righteous in Christ…this should radically change our lives to be passionate for him instead of finding our identity in other things, people, or causes.
I’d love to know more of your history.
Jeff,
You’ve said a couple of really intersting things in your latest reply. You seemed to be saying that you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot or will not lead two different people to two very different conclusions about something important–that you believe that if the holy spirit tells you that it’s bad and wrong for you to pursue a homosexual relationship, and if the holy spirit tells Lisa that it’s right and good for her to pursue a homosexual relationship, that this doesn’t work for you at all in some way. Can you elaborate on that and talk about why you believe that?
You said “I do know he’s not in the business of validating us along each of our journeys…that would be against his very character. All of us want him to fit into our lives the way that makes us happiest”
What do you mean? Some of the Christians I know are very into the idea of God making it his/her business to validate human beings, and some Christians I know are into the idea that God very much wants us to be happy–indeed that in a sense he/she gently insists that we pursue happiness as one of our large goals in life. This seems to be very different from what you are saying. Can you elaborate/elucidate?
Thanks!
As Christians I think it is our duty to love the members of the gay community. Period. Whether we think it’s a sin or not. That parents would turn their child away, because of his/her sexual orientation, while professing to be Christians, is inexcusable to me. Rio’s story is representative of what I’ve encountered when speaking to many gay Christian, and I know gay Christian seems like an oxymoron to many. There are many members of the gay community that love God, but as the church becomes more militant in our persecution of them, they struggle to maintain their faith and end up no longer identifying as Christian. I will probably never know in my lifetime if homosexuality is a sin or not, but I do know that every gay person was fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God and is deserving of my love and respect. So I will rather err in on the side of grace on this issue and continue to love and serve.
Thank you, Servant Girl! I believe that we are ALL made in the image of God and that God loves us just as we are. There is NOTHING that we can do that will cause God to NOT love us. That’s what unconditional love means – it’s not dependent on ANYTHING. And we, in turn, are called to love people just as God does – regardless of their actions. It is not our place to judge – “This one is worthy of God’s love and that one is not.”
Thank you, Craig, for providing this forum for dialog and thank you, Rio, for sharing your painful story with us!
Craig, I’m puzzled by your statement “I do hope that Christians will begin to treat the gay community with the respect and dignity they deserve,” which seems to imply that there are not presently ANY Christians who DO treat gay & lesbian people with respect.
I, and hundreds – thousands, even – of people I know or know of are living proof that there is not a clear line with Christians on one side and gay & lesbian people on the other side. You see, I am a lesbian AND I am a Christian.
I believe that God dwells in each and every [human] being. Bar none. The challenge that I and each of us face is this: will we acknowledge and honor each person as a unique face of God? Not just the ones who like us or look like us or agree with us, but ALL people? I believe that is what we are called to do.
Hi Laurie – I can see how my sentence could be confusing, thanks for asking for some clarification. I do think there are LOTS of Christians who DO treat the gay community with respect and dignity and I would agree with you that there is not (or should not be) a line with Christians on one side and gay and lesbian people on the other side. My comments have more to do with perceptions than reality. You’ve probably seen the Barna stat showing that 91% of people outside Christianity perceive us as “anti-homosexual” (and 80% of insiders agree). It’s what Christianity is known for above anything else. Now that doesn’t mean that 91% of Christians are hateful, I personally think a small minority of people are actually responsible for a large portion of this negative perception. Still though, I’ve never known a gay or lesbian person who hasn’t had bad experiences with Christians, which tells me that it’s more than just a perception. What I hope to help change is two fold: I’d like for the people who are causing harm to rethink how their words and actions are being received (not as “love”) and I’d like the silent majority who aren’t causing harm to step up and defend their gay brothers and sisters a bit more in order to help change the perception that all Christians are anti-homosexual. While I personally agree with you that it’s possible to be gay and christian at the same time, I don’t think it’s necessary for all Christians to believe this way in order for Christians to treat the gay community with respect and dignity. But then again, I might be a little too optimistic.
Am I off base here, Laurie? What have been your experiences with straight Christians?
If you haven’t seen it already, I wrote a article in this month’s newsletter that addresses some of these thoughts in more detail.
Craig
I think that much of Rio’s frustration is rooted in the fact that if a gay person ventures into a church, they are automatically (whether verbalized or not) given a specific time frame to become “straight” after they become “saved.” Many times, it’s assumed that if someone who is gay gets saved, they are immediately “set straight”. This is not the case in my experience. I’ve been married for 2 years, and love my wife dearly. We have wonderful sex, yet I still find men attractive. I have no desire to be unfaithful to my wife. I simply find certain men to be very attractive in the same way that I find certain women to be attractive (as any heterosexual guy will tell you is natural) On occasion when I’ve mentioned in a guarded fashion that the attraction still exists, my wife is hurt because she’s “got nothing that can compete with a man.” She mentions that she “thought that would be over by now.” The time frame seems based in this idea that salvation is a one time event rather than a journey of perpetual change.
I’ve been in church all my life. I went pentecostal churches until I stopped going to church about 7 months ago. These churches emphasized discipleship by experience. It was when the holy spirit “hit” you that you were changed. All through my teenage years I “sold out” and sought change. It never came. Throughout my college years I sought change. It never came. If God is so hell-bent on me being straight instead of bisexual…then why didn’t the change come? It certainly wasn’t because I didn’t try or want it. I am the victim of spiritual abusers. People used their authority to abuse me spiritually, to make me feel bad, like I wanted to participate in something they deemed as shameful. They heaped shame, and then when I tried and prayed and sought to be different, the change never came. So now I have the shame ingrained in my core. Now I fear even thinking or saying that I am bi-sexual (the fact that I’ve typed it twice in this forum causes me great anxiety). I fear being open with my wife because I’ve seen how my previous attempts have hurt her. Regardless of homosexuality being a sin or not, the church MUST refuse to put a time frame on people’s lives. There can’t be a gay to straight in a weekend expectation. The church is more tolerant of people who continue to smoke and drink (which is another entirely different discussion of what is and is not sin) than they are of people who are homosexual.
I think Christians look at homosexuality as an über-sin. We tend to be merciful when it comes to things like heterosexual lust and problems with pornography, but when someone is dealing with homosexual tendencies we are more likely to shut them out or judge them for that. For me, the issue is the same regardless of the type of sin. Is it something you actually struggle with, or have you come to a compromise in your faith? I don’t think we can reconcile our sin with our faith. If I struggle with a spirit of hatred and anger, it is sinful to act on those feelings. If I say to myself, “God loves me and I believe, so it’s ok if I relate to others in a hateful, bitter way,” then I am compromising my faith and essentially negating the Bible’s authority in my life. It’s the same with homosexuality. Someone may struggle with those tendencies, and that’s the same struggle we all face with sin. But to say, “I’m ok with my homosexual lifestyle and God accepts me this way; there is no reason to change my ways,” is to misunderstand or completely ignore Scripture. I don’t say these things to sound judgmental; like I said, it’s the same with any sin. My wife has two cousins who are gay, and we love them and hang out with them. We don’t push our faith on them and they don’t disrespect us for believing the way we do. I really don’t have anything against homosexuals, just like I don’t have anything against my friend who struggles with a pornography addiction. It just comes down to whether or not God’s Word is really the authority in our lives or not, and to understanding that salvation is a process of regeneration, not a one-time event.
Josh, can I just say that there are indeed things that I do which separate me from God’s love (my way of saying what you call “sin”) but being a lesbian is NOT one of them. You see, being a lesbian is who I AM, not something I DO. A “sin” is something one DOES which separates them from God’s love. One has a choice – however hard that choice may be – to do that thing or not to do it. However, a tall, dark-haired, brown-eyed, light-skinned lesbian is who God made me and God doesn’t make mistakes! I can’t possibly change any of those qualities of who I am, no matter how much I might wish to be short or blond or blue-eyed or dark skinned or a straight man.
I totally don’t expect you to agree with me. I’m not trying to change you. I believe that God lives in you just as She lives in me. You have a right to your own opinions and beliefs, as do I. You say that you don’t want to sound judgmental, but it appears that you are saying that who I am is a sin. I am not offended by your contention that I am sin, because there is NO THING that anybody can say to or about me that can change the fact that God loves me and lives in me JUST AS I AM.
I’m guessing that this is something about which we may need to agree to disagree, which is fine with me. I wish you well on your journey of faith. If you can accept MY journey of faith as being just as valid as yours, even though we have very different ideas, that’s great. If not, well, it’s no skin off my back. May peace be with you.
Laurie, I think some of what you’re getting at is/was one of the crux points of the argument. It’s easy for someone who is an outsider to the feelings, emotions, and thoughts that LGBT people have to make sweeping generalizations about them. For some reason, we as a society accepted these kinds of arguments for so long. Strangely though, I see little difference in someone saying “being LGBT is 100% a choice, and you can simply choose to leave it” and “being caught up in an arranged marriage in India is 100% the choice of a 9 year old girl”. The people saying this are neither LGBT or a 9 year old girl in India, yet a theological paradigm based on what may or may not be entirely irrelevant passages of scripture allows someone to think that they can assume knowledge about someone’s experiences. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if God is so hell bent on me being straight instead of bisexual…then why after all the fasting and prayer and repentance have I not changed? There’s more to it than simple choice. Now especially in the case of men, do I believe there are other factors involved(molestation, absent father, body image issues)? YES! Do I think that SOME people consciously choose homosexuality…yes. Do I think that homosexuality in a biological sense is less common than homosexuality in a sense of volition…YES. But for some people…there are factors that are so out of the individual’s control which seems to point in the direction of a biological difference.
Thank you, Derrick!
I’m going to be checking out of this dialog, because I prefer to spend my time BEING God’s Love in my own particular incarnation, rather than trying to justify my existence to people who apparently receive comfort from calling other people sinners. I don’t believe it is our place to judge other people and it’s none of my business what other people think of me. Jeff (& everyone) is free to have their own opinions, but I don’t need to put myself in a place where my existence is constantly being judged.
And in response to your later post, my therapist pointed out to me that if someone insults you (for instance) and you either totally miss their point or choose not to be insulted (for whatever reason), then has an insult happened? No! So your abusers (and anyone else, for that matter) can heap shame on you, but if you steadfastly refuse to be shamed, believing instead that God created you whole & perfect, just as you are today, then you needn’t suffer, because neither their opinion of you, nor anything they might say or do can separate you from the awesome Love of God!
I HOPE you have found a church where you are accepted and loved for you you actually are, rather than for who they think you should become, in order to comply with their ideas. (If not, LMK & I can help you find one!) God’s love, unlike people’s love, is unconditional, which means it is totally NOT dependent on any action on our part. Regardless of what we do or don’t do, God still loves us.
Be well! Know that you ARE loved!
Peace, love, joy & hope to you, my friend!
~Laurie~
Check out Jerry Bridges book: Respectable Sins. Great perspective on how we (the church) tolerate so many subtle sins of our own and focus on the “major” sins of our society. This does not get away from the fact that sin is sin but it’s a kick in the pants to the hyper religious churched who tend to rail against things like homosexuality. It’s not intended to make anyone feel good in their sin (whatever it is) however. It’s a major reason why there is such a wedge between and a defensive positioning around these big issues and have even pushed people further into them…this is what happens when we all are guilty of get away from the “living out” of Scripture and Truth.
Benjamin,
I believe the Holy Spirit can lead people into different opinions and conclusions on things that do not contradict his character…therefore not on sin issues. Remember Satan can as well…with Believers and Non-Believers. Satan is the master of lies and the earth is his kingdom “for a time” so that’s why there is a fine line we have to everyday (as Believers) be in the Word, pray against Satan, his works and affects, and test all things.
On your other question…I believe God chose his children and validated them at the cross once and for all…validation is not a process..sanctification is after validation…so yes we are validated but not in what and who we are in our journey along the way because then it would be dependant on us…that would make Him an imperfect, unholy, unjust God. Where’s the line on who is validated more than the next guy if he’s just validating us as human beings in our personal journeys? Because of the curse we are his enemies even while he still loves us and pursues us. That is hard to fathom to me! It starts with the Creator. We were dead in our trespasses and have new life in Him. Then God works everything in good and bad (bad meaning what was intended for bad but will be reconciled as good at some point) until he completes his work in us for our ultimate Joy. Happiness is an emotion….Joy is a way of life. That’s the big difference in what we think we want in our finite time and space…He has to be the one to initiate in us through the Holy Spirit’s work to become more and more satisfied in Him by trusting Him and seeking Him…in that Hope is where our true Joy will be realized. When Joy is our way of life what results from that is what I think God is totally cool with for his kids…to be thankful in the smallest of things to enjoy happiness and sadness of life–because we don’t have to be worried about being validated…it’s what He has already done not what we do. He wants us to depend on Him more and more because He is worthy…We want to depend on ourselves more and more and run from him in the name of our own definition of happiness and fulfillment.
Jeff, I find it hard to resonate with you. I think that the “not on sin issues” kindof circumvents the question altogether, refusing to deal with the complex nature of the problem. I think it’s easy to do when there’s not a person directly involved. I am a Christian, a pentecostal, with a B.A. in Christian Ministry from the top pentecostal school of religion in the country, married to a woman for two years, and I have bi-sexual attractions. I can remember being aroused by both males and females from the time I was in elementary school. I remember praying, and fasting, and desperately wanting to get rid of my attraction to men as a teenager. I “gave everything to God” and had some experiences that I thought changed everything, I went to Christian counseling and they “treated” me for my “same-sex-attraction”, and I’m sitting here today with the same attractions I had when I was twelve. Callous spiritual abusers have suggested that I really didn’t want to change, that I enjoy my pet sin and want to “have my cake and eat it too.” I’ve been heaped with shame. I don’t want to have peace in identifying myself as bi-sexual because I want to cheat on my wife or have a threesome with another guy, I simply don’t want the tinges of shame that my abusers have heaped upon me when I see a guy (or girl) and find them attractive.
Have I rejected the Holy Spirit’s guidance because I’ve come to a different conclusion than you? Is it God’s will that I suffer the shame heaped upon me by my abusers because God refuses to take away the attraction?
Laurie and Derrick,
I find it confusing that you are doing the exact same thing you’re accusing me of? Judging. I am the furthest thing from the “blow horn guy” or heaping shame upon you…I feel aweful that you are jumping to that conclusion. I am trying to speak what I believe is God’s Truth in love. I love you guys and don’t even know you! Why can’t somebody love you and still disagree? Even on a hot topic. I find it refreshing that I don’t have clones around…if I had a bunch of “Jeffs” around me all the time how would I be challenged, encouraged, and grow? What I do know from my own life is that if I get easily offended or defensive by throwing out the “Who are you to judge me” card, it shows that there may be some truth in it. I understand that this is a complex issue and I’m not generalizing at all. However, I do believe, and you can disagree with me, that foundationally there are rights and wrongs…that is Truth. I just think we all bring in our own “stuff” to merky the waters so we can numb ourselves, especially on things that are more complex. God’s not the one that makes this complicated. I truly believe not just on the homosexual topic but many things in life that we all fight the urge to want to be our own judge and jury on our lives–in essence “You do your thing and I’ll do mine…God loves us anyway”. Well, God loves us this much that he sent His own Son to die in our place for our sins because he knew there was no other way to reconcile us to the Father. We all fall short. That is why he loves us…because he longs to rescue us! Not because he feels bad for us or is just a genie in the sky that we tap into to feel good about ourselves when need be.
Derrick,
I am with you that there is a lot of Christian self help junk out there and goofy Christian counselors that seem to trivialize the depths of complexity in this with the “get over it” approach or the 5-step program. However, don’t we need to be careful when saying “urges” though because we could get into a lot of areas that I can say or others can say well if it’s an urge then it’s not my fault. I know people who have overcome it and have completely changed their desires to the opposite sex…so it can happen. It doesn’t mean most don’t struggle with it the rest of their lives but like you wrestle with it and have to choose one way or the other. It must be grueling for you and I hope you do have true friends who can be there for you. I love you enough though to say that it’s not who you are in Christ…it’s who you are in Adam. The same as all of us in humanity…maybe just in different areas of each’s life. No one is holier than another…please don’t think that I’m sitting on a pedastal looking down. I desperately need Him every day…and want to be obedient to Him not because I have to but because I get to! I don’t know…what are your thoughts?
Jeff, first, I’d like to apologize if anything I’ve said has felt like I was judging you or denying you the right to have an opinion or lumping you into the group of my abusers. I try to stay away from such implications by asking questions. I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialog. I think the issue most dear to my heart and spirit is that no two experiences are the same. My experience of bisexuality is different from Laurie’s, Adam Hood’s and every other LGBT person represented in this forum. It is impossible for me to understand Laurie’s feelings and experiences, even though I’m sure that the leap is not as difficult as it would be for someone who has never experienced same sex attraction. This isn’t an argument from “You don’t know me, don’t judge me.” It is an argument that just because people you know have changed (or at least appear to have changed) doesn’t necessarily mean that their experiences are normative for 100% of people who experience same sex attraction. I have seen many people who have “changed” and still fight daily. This evidence does not fit into my theological paradigm that says that on the journey of becoming like Christ, we are progressively purified from the sinful habits that we once embraced. If homosexuality is not part of God’s design, its obliteration by means of sanctification seems rarer than Exodus International would like people to believe. If bisexuality is not part of my design, then God has failed me. I’ve been afflicted for 11 years, and had several periods where I’d “overcome” (which meant I repressed and tried not to think about it and if all else failed I just kept silent about it). I’ve been to more than just “Christian self help” stuff. I’ve been to licensed professional counselors and pastors. I’ve done it all…but nothing has changed.
When it comes to talking about urges, I agree that it can tread into some murky water. My response can be critiqued as nihilistic or too pragmatic or utilitarian, but there are some urges that are caused by biological imbalances such as kleptomania, alcoholism, or histrionic personality disorder. Each of these biological imbalances lead to behavior that could easily be considered sinful. Kleptos steal, alchies get drunk, and histrionics act out with inappropriate sexual behaviors. If none of these behaviors were considered sinful, they would still be frowned upon because they lead to hurting other people. If we never had a concept of homosexuality being wrong, would there be any negative repercussions directly from the homosexuality? Our entire idea that homosexuality is bad is based in a cultural norm that valued reproduction over all else. It has been passed down and morphed over time.
The best argument I’ve heard against homosexuality is that it was not God’s intention for creation. From my reading of scripture, God also provided plants and trees for the first humans to eat, not animals. Is vegetarianism to be considered normative for Christians because of this? God certainly didn’t intend on humans eating meat. Yet later on, God provides quail for the Hebrews, and even tells Peter to eat what God had previously called unclean. Could it be that somewhere in the 2000 years that have passed, God has changed on homosexuality if God did truly care in the first place?
Sorry for the long read, but I feel this might be the most sound argument I’ve made in a while.
Derrick…hey brother I’m glad we can dialogue about this in love. Didn’t Jesus experience exactly what you’re saying about my experience is unique? He knows exactly what each of us has and will experience so really His experience is truly unique that no one can understand..yet he is the one who links all of our “different’ experiences together. All of us may have different experiences so when I hear someone say that it sounds more like a wall that is put up so others can’t “relate” to each other’s journeys therefore it stops right there and nothing is accomplished.
I understand you’ve been to a ton of great resources for help…none of that can fix you…you don’t need to be “fixed” right? None of us needs to be fixed…that is our culture and religion talking. We need Christ and his righteousness…not a better more perfect version of ourselves…ain’t going to happen. Because of that it’s ok to keep struggling but giving it to the Lord at the same time and press on in Hope for the day we see His face. The battle of the flesh continues but the journey must be worth it–only for those who have complete trust in Him…if not there is ZERO hope.
I’ve heard the “meat” argument before on what God intends…since it seems the Garden of Eden was plentiful for us to live and eat from. He does not say after the curse that eating meat is a sin…remember the law in the OT that says don’t eat certain meats was a Jewish man-made law that had nothing to do with being a vegetarian or trying to live as God intended. Plus many of those laws went away and ultimately Christ fulfilled and became the law. I don’t see the point in the parable such as the Prodigal Son that our hearts should be convicted when the Father gets the best of his cattle for the homecoming part of his son. I don’t believe that is the “moral” of the story. Yes God gave us dominion over and said we are to steward all of creation. It doesn’t mean go out and savagly hunt beast or treat them with cruelty either. That I struggle with those who that. Although as a result of the curse too some animals have no regard for humans that’s for sure so we also have to protect ourselves. For those who have to provide for their family and sustain human life if we have to eat meat then I don’t believe that is affronting God’s character.
Well, in a literal sense, no. Jesus didn’t experience being a middle class white bisexual boy in the late 1990′s. While I don’t deny that Jesus knows us all and experienced what it is like to be human, I don’t think this permits those who are unified in Christ to make decisions or assumptions for or about one another. It’s not a wall to keep people out, instead its an inviting avenue to see things through a different lens. A willingness to experience “what ifs” is something that can bring about positive change. This isn’t a call to abandon everything you hold to, but I don’t feel like you’ve explored the “what if” of homosexuality being permissible with God. I think emerging from this hypothetical would at least provide some new ideas or understandings.
My understanding of Christ’s righteousness is to be more like God and be in right relationship with God and God’s creation. Sanctification is the progressive restoration of these relationships. If homosexuality is an impediment to that relationship, it seems that it should be restored to the way God intended it. In my case, it seems God is either unable, or unwilling. I trust God is able, it’s the volition thing that’s troublesome. If God is unwilling…why? Does God delight in my suffering? Does God want to test me for the rest of my life? Why? Do I really want to spend eternity with a God who has condemned me to a hell of a life? To be frank, no. You say it’s “ok to struggle for the rest of my life”…it’s really not. Imagine losing your breath every time you see a squirrel…like falling out of a tree and getting the breath knocked out of you. Then let me tell you that it’s culturally offensive to behave like that. Now let me tell you that there’s lots of people that have had the same problem…but they don’t anymore. Can you imagine living the rest of your life like that? It’s daily torment…life impeding torment. How can this be of God?
In response to the meat argument…no God didn’t say that eating meat was sinful…in fact, it seems God provided and encouraged it. It still wasn’t however, what God intended, and since that is the crux of that argument, it still holds water. You mention those dietary laws were “man-made.” How do you determine which of those levitican holiness code laws were of human origin and which were from God? How do you determine which ones “went out with Jesus” and why homosexuality is so steadfast? How do you reconcile cultural problems with these texts such as the idea that the whole of human life was in the sperm and its loss through homosexuality, masturbation, or withdrawal was murder? Could it be that homosexuality was culturally frowned upon because of these ideas and like other laws of human origin, found their way into the levitican code? Could Paul have been a product of this context and made his argument in Romans based on something that had been culturally derived, yet delivered as God’s will throughout generations. Indeed one can see that (Numbers 5) God told Moses if a man suspected his wife of cheating but had no witnesses he could put her through a ritual called the Sotah where she was undressed and disheveled by the priest and made to drink poison. If she lived she was innocent, if she was guilty, she died (I’m sure most if not all of the women put through this were deemed to be cheating whores). If God REALLY said that, I’m out man…totally out. If God is really like you say Jeff…there’s no way I could follow in good faith. My experiences just couldn’t allow it. If I go to hell…I burn as a rebel who dared to stand up to a tyrant. Of course I don’t believe God is like that, and I really look forward to eternity with my creator.
Jeff,
You asked: “Why can’t somebody love you and still disagree”
This is a really interesting question.
To me, if someone is hurting, then it’s impossible to both love them and disagree. Loving and disagreeing is only possible when someone is feeling pretty much okay and safe. I know that’s how it works in my relationship with my wife. When she’s hurting, she doesn’t want to hear about how her pain is invalid, or how she would feel better or have avoided the hurt if she did it this other way, or how her choices led her to experience the hurt, or any of that. She just wants to be hugged and have me say things like “Yeah, I can see that you are hurting. I love you. Here’s a hug. You’re awesome. Etc.”
I think it’s totally possible for people to be hurting with regards an entire subject area of conversation. In such a case, disagreeing with them is not loving. At least that’s how it seems to me.
Loving perhaps involves a lot more listening than talking. It’s impossible to listen and verbalize/write about your disagreement simultaneously.
Thoughts?
I don’t buy Rio’s story at all. Well, parts of it. First off, even if people at a Christian university or college learned she is a fomo they WOULD NOT threaten to kill her or shoot bullet holes through her dorm room (or her apartment? her home? first year students live in dorms as a requirement at the large majority of Christian colleges).
I am pretty certain that if we asked Rio for some more details of her experience at that school it would come out that the reaction was not nearly so violent or negative. I’ve even considered that the people putting together this video are embellishing for the purpose of trying to have a greater impact on those watching it. It would not surprise me at all if Anglicans did that in a video they made. Yes, of Catholics and Pentecostals we would pretty much expect it, but even Anglicans I can see them doing it for the sake of affect.