Do you think that experiences have affected how you view God?
ABOUT THE INTERVIEWEE: Elaine Hamilton is a Marriage and Family Therapist in San Diego, CA and the author of Church on the Couch.
OTHER CLIPS BY: ELAINE HAMILTON
OTHER CLIPS ABOUT: Who God is
PURCHASE THIS CLIP: RYF Vol. 2 | Individual clip
I’m increasingly unsure of this ‘relationship with God’ paradigm. Seems to me that is the cause of people either feeling that they’re inadequate because they cannot match up to a perceived standard of holiness (and therefore God is disappointed in me) or feeling that they’re self satisfied (cos God loves me, y’know).
Maybe it is more than that. Maybe God doesn’t-really-give-a-monkeys about me because I largely don’t-give-a-monkeys about the things he is worried about – justice, fairness, forgiveness, wholeness and so forth. Maybe he isn’t really terribly interested in my existential angst about my own existence when that just falls over into self um.. massage.
I like what Elaine said at the very end “These messages from our childhood are very powerful, and they tend to impact how we related to everyone, including God”
But I would reverse “We only know what we’ve experienced” and say rather “We experience what we know” or even better “We experience what we expect and focus on”.
My experience became that yes, God was very malleable–he assumed whatever form I expected–much more so than in any of my human relationships, where people can totally surprise me. This was part of the end of being a Christian for me–I realized that other people do indeed have a personality and an existence outside my own expectations and experience of them, but that God did not seem to–that I could cast him as I wished. I wouldn’t say now that I don’t believe in God, but I would definitely say I don’t believe in a personal God.
My question for Elaine is: how, then, do you know, and know about (conocer y saber) God, if you find that God is very easily cast as various characters based on an intellectual theology or an emotional theology?
The messages from our childhood do have a powerful effect on the way we relate to our friends, family, and God as adults. In order to have successful relationships, we have to unlearn the things we were told by others and form some opinions of our own. The parent who told you would never amount to anything as a child is just as powerful as the pastor (church) that led you to believe that God was sitting on His throne in heaven waiting for you to sin so He could judge and condemn you. I had to unlearn “God as judge” and develop “God as friend” on my own. The fact is that many new Christians enter the faith very well adjusted, with no childhood scars and healthy relationships with others. However once Christians start telling them what to believe, what to expect from God and what kind of father He is, it often has the same effect of having someone telling you “you’re not good enough ” as a child. Of course it’s usually followed with “But God knew you would not be good enough, so He sent His perfect Son to save your butt.”The healthiest Christians I know have managed to develop their own personal relationship with God, based on the experiences they have made and had with Him. I love your comment “…God was very malleable–he assumed whatever form I expected…” I’ve recently been reminded that I was made in the image of God and not the other way around, “Jesus is not clay, you can’t put him into your mold and claim him as your personal Jesus. You can’t try to spin the teachings of the Bible that don’t fit into your Jesus mold.” Coming from a 10 year run as an atheist spared me the problem of being told who God was, or how to relate to Him by the church. I wasn’t moved by a sermon, or answered an alter call, I simply spent hundreds of hours reading the Bible and formed my own opinions of who God is, to me. So the feedback from a friend and this video has me thinking. Am I worshiping the God of the bible or my interpretation of him? Is my faith too intellectualized or is there enough spirituality in there? So far God’s been silent on the issue.
Sevant Girl,
I love this question you asked “Am I worshiping the God of the bible or my interpretation of him?”. Do you believe these two things to be different/distinct? Can you elaborate on your answer?
Benjamin,
If I’m reading correctly, you rejected the Christian god because, at least partially, you could make him fit the mold you wanted him to, thus making him your own creation rather than the other way around. I’ve found that the moment I try to mold God into something, or rather, when I get a handle on what/who I think God i), I either read something in the Bible or am exposed to a perspective that completely shatters my mold. So in both our cases, our perception of God is changing, but where you believed it was you molding God, I believe it is God molding me. Just something I find interesting. What do you think?
Patricia,
yeah, that sounds about right. What I found was that while in my relationships with people they are generally able to transcend my idea of them, and surprise me, in my relationship with God I had a bit too much control over the nature of the relationship–intellectually and emotionally, God seemed a lot less “real and outside myself” than the people with whom I was in relationship seemed.
Benjamin,
I never believed my interpretation of God to be different from the Biblical God until someone recently pointed out to me that it was.
When I started re-reading the Bible about 5 years ago, I was amazed by the grace and love I found in the pages of the New Testament, and the honest challenges put forth in Psalms. I started forming my own idea of who Jesus was and what being a Christian meant. I decided I didn’t have to conform to a cookie cutter walk with Christ, but rather one where He and I may have to disagree on a few things and that would be ok. Since I can’t meet up with God for coffee and talk it out, I can only look to the Bible for answers, but like all books, it’s open to interpretation. The question “am I worshiping the God of the bible or my interpretation of Him?” comes from this dilemma. So many of us as Christians worship our church’s, or our pastor’s interpretation of Christ. Walking into Christianity with the ultimatum that I would not blindly agree, but seek my own answers inevitably led to whole “…Jesus is not clay…” comment. I was basically told that creating my own personal Jesus was not the same as having a personal relationship with God. So I wonder if I’m living a “fairy tale” where all is peace and love and I’ll end up living happily ever after with an idol, when in reality the true God is nothing like I imagine Him to be and I better get on board with the rest of the church before it’s too late. What will I have to give up to become a ‘good Christian’ and why have I spent the last 3 years thinking I already was? The catalyst for my feedback was the song My Jesus, I was trying to incorporate it into worship but these lyrics either hit too close to home or were deemed inappropriate:
Which Jesus do you follow?
Which Jesus do you serve?
Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the arrogant
So which one do you want to be?
Cause my Jesus bled and died for my sins
He spent His time with thieves and sluts and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the rich
So which one do you want to be?
Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet would stain the carpet
Servant Girl,
thank you for responding so openly.
I love this that you said: “Since I can’t meet up with God for coffee and talk it out, I can only look to the Bible for answers, but like all books, it’s open to interpretation.”
I came to that realization too. I took a slightly different path thereafter than you, but I very much like your path, and recently my path looks more like that too.
Recently I’ve chosen to believe that the great majority of what we think and feel about everything is “make-believe” in the best possible sense of that term. Hence when I read about you deciding to interpret the Bible so that Jesus and God were really nice and compassionate and attractive, I really liked that. It sounds like maybe quite recently you’ve had an experience where someone else is at best trying to get you to question your own choices, and at worst saying you should make different choices. If that’s the case, I guess I would ask: Why are you listening to this person? Is listening to them helping you to trust yourself, or to distrust yourself? And which of these do you want to do? And why?
For me, I choose to totally trust myself =).
Thanks Benjamin,
I had a temporary moment of craziness and let this person’s opinions interfere with the relationship I have going on with “my Jesus.” Fortunately I read a few old journals, re-affirmed the path I’m on, and set the naysayer straight. We still disagree on lots of things, but that’s the beauty of Christianity to me.
Servant Girl,
OMFSM! Your response TOTALLY made my day! You ROCK! Wooooooooohooooooooooooot!!!!!!!!!
rAMEN brother Benjamin, rAMEN.
Is this site for real? Because this all seems like a joke
Rudy,
Speaking for myself, I bring my real self to this site and my interactions on it. =). How come it seems like a joke to you?
I thought when came to this site it was a Christian site, but it’s more like new age. Am I wrong?
Rudy,
“new age” feels like a very squishy term to me–I have a hard time pinning down what I mean by it, although I have a *sense* thereof.
My sense about Recycle Your Faith is that we’re attempting to create a space where both Christian and New Agers (as well as people who are in *both* those categories at once!!), where modernists and postmodernists, where those who have never been Christians, and those who are new Chrisitians, and those who are old Christians, and those who are no longer Christians, can all have an interesting, provocative yet respectful conversation with each other about what matters to all of us.
So … if that *is* the purpose, how are we doing? Would love your further feedback =)
Rudy,
If you’re from the school of Christians who don’t really talk about God, or faith, or struggles we all have, this site can come across as non-Christian. I mean just admitting that you don’t absolutely 100% agree with every word in the Bible is enough to get people worrying about you in many churches. I’ve only recently found RYF and I’m really glad I did. Christianity has been around for a really long time and the church of today looks nothing like the secret meetings in the time of Jesus, or the Roman Catholic empire of the Middle Ages. It has evolved and grown, and so has its members. Many of us here have questions that we just can’t bring to our pastors, or have brought to them and received frustratingly useless answers. Others of us here have started to question and doubt the fundamentals that Christianity was built. Others are here for reasons that none of us know; sometimes they’re unsure themselves. The only unifying thing is that this is a Christian site, where believers, doubters and non-believers can discuss some of the things on their heart and mind with others, whether they are of like mind or not. I hope you check out the rest of videos here and stick around.
Greetings from Hong Kong, China.
There are many excellent writings in this world. The bible happens to be the most successful compilation of ancient writings on the market, thanks to a goldsmith named Johannes Gutenberg who, in 1440, perfected the printing process. The mechanization of bookmaking led to the first mass production of books in history in assembly line-style. A single Renaissance printing press could produce 3,600 pages per workday, compared to forty by hand-printing and a few by hand-copying. Books of bestselling authors like Luther or Erasmus were sold by the hundred thousands in their life-time and catapulted the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter-Reformation to new heights and popularity.
Around 500 B.C., China’s best known ancient sage, Lao Zi ( Old son ) knew that written words would solidify into formal dogma. Confucianism was a great example, and Lao Zi was a bit older than his contemporary, Kong Fu Zi aka Confucius. Lao Zi wanted his philosophy to remain a natural way to live life with goodness, serenity and respect. Unlike Confucius, Lao Tzu laid down no rigid code of behavior. He believed a person’s conduct should be governed by instinct and conscience, which is the definition for human spirituality. 5 centuries later, in another land, Jesus warned of false ideas which caused people to seek spirituality in physical domains here and there, i.e. in this church, on that mountain, in a sacred book. He said the Spiritual Kingdom is within you. Paul of Tarsus on the other hand, was a Pharisee, and the son of a Pharisee. Paul was like Confucius.
Anyway, Lao Zi believed that human life, like everything else in the universe, is constantly influenced by outside forces. He believed “simplicity” to be the key to truth and freedom. Lao Tzu encouraged his followers to observe, and seek to understand the laws of nature; to develop intuition and build up personal power; and to use that power to lead life with love, and without force, i.e. devoid of strives.
The truth is universal and again to quote Lao Zi, “Nature is not human hearted,” while the ancient Hebrew sage described the heart of man as being evil beyond measure. For political expediency – the marketed human product called the Holy Bible was adulterated with half truths, which in simple terms are plain lies. For example Heaven and Hell were given a tangibility and the condition for salvation specified. The primary doctrine of the early churches taught an inclusive faith – that is until they were forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the sixth century. Four of the six theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universal reconciliation, and only one preached eternal damnation. Go figure. Cheers.