This is the second week in a four-part series called Four Perspectives on Homosexuality. Each week a different person will be highlighted with a different point of view. A new segment called “Rewind” will also accompany these week’s main video. Rewind segments give you a glimpse into the experiences that have shaped the interviewee’s perspectives. For more information about the Four Perspectives on Homosexuality series click here.

The Biblical interpretations that Kathy briefly unpacks in this clip are more thoroughly explained in articles that you can find on the web. A Google search for “homosexuality and Bible” will pull up information from both sides. Two organizations that have different perspectives and lots of resources are Evangelicals Concerned and Exodus International.

How do you respond to Kathy’s understanding of those passages in the Bible? Do you find her arguments convincing?

How much influence does the Bible have on your views towards homosexuality?

ABOUT THE INTERVIEWEE: Kathy Baldock is affiliated with Affirming Christian Network and has resources and a blog at Canyon Walker Connections.
OTHER CLIPS BY: KATHY BALDOCK
OTHER CLIPS ABOUT: Homosexuality
PURCHASE THIS CLIP: RYF Vol. 3 | Reconsidering the Bible and Homosexuality

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179 Responses to “Reconsidering the Bible and Homosexuality”

  1. karen paschall says:

    I dont think you could have worded that any better.

  2. Shelinda Avance says:

    Hello Kathy. There are some questions that I fill lead to ask you. Do you believe in the Holy Bible? Have you read about Sodom and Gomorah? Do you believe that God changed since then? Do you believe God’s pleased with Homosexuals and Leaders that says it’s okay to do it? Do you believe it to be natural to sleep with the same sex? What ever your answers may be, God loves you and wants what is best for all of us whom he has created.

    • Dan Kaufman says:

      Hello, Shelinda. How many shekels did you pay for your last oxen?
      How many adulterers have you stoned recently?
      And have you purged all of your mixed-thread fabrics from your wardrobe? Whatever your answers, God loves you and wants what is best for all of us whom she has created.

      • Joanna Goff says:

        Hello, Dan. I see your point. However, I’ve been studying Apologetics for 30 years now. In case you aren’t familiar with the term, it’s a line of study that takes into consideration the multi-dimensionality of the Word of God. Although times change, the principles in the Bible do not. God also does not change. There are 3 things God cannot do: sin, lie, and change. He doesn’t need to change because He’s perfect. His view on homosexuality is not agreeable. One humongous mistake Christians make, though, is to be hateful toward other sinners. As Jesus once said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. I have no choice but to believe what God says is infallible. I have many reasons for choosing this way of thinking. I’ll tell you, though: I have 2 homosexual adopted daughters and I adore them both. I want them to be happy. I want them to know they’re loved. Tragically, according to the Bible, if they do not turn from their sin (and I’ll call it what God calls it: sin) they will not enter into the presence of God either when God’s beloved are raptured or die. It’s the same with all sin. If you receive Christ, you are called to become more like him throughout life. Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you will turn away from sin more and more as you get to know God better. Although I am displeased with my daughters’ choices, I couldn’t love them more, and I believe this is an accurate reflection of how God feels when His children sin, no matter the sin. The thing is, the more Christ-like we become, the more we think like He does. He loves all sinners (all humankind) enough to die a horrendous, physically and emotionally painful death, suffering beyond what we’re capable of comprehending, so we who receive Him would have a choice: we can choose not to sin. God loves us all the same! I’m sorry this is so long, but I hope I’ve said all I can to clarify my position. I am not homophobic. I do not hate homosexuals. Neither does God. BUT. He does call homosexuality a sin. I can’t argue with Him! He created us! I only know of His incredible grace and mercy, because I receive both every day as I constantly find myself in sin and need to go to Him to repent, to ask forgiveness, for help in turning away from my sin. I sincerely hope you know our incredible, perfect Creator, have received His Spirit the Comforter, and are in the process of having God’s mind become yours. I’m sure you didn’t want this long reply. I’m sorry for that. I noticed your reference to God as a “she”, which in part is accurate! God does not have a gender unless you count the fact Jesus came as a man because of the social/religious climate of the time. By the way, did you know in Hebrews it states Jesus was tempted in EVERY way just as we are, yet was without sin? Love you, seriously!

        • Dan Kaufman says:

          No, Joanna, God does not “call homosexuality a sin.” The word “homosexual” wasn’t even coined–by English speakers–until the late 1800s. And if you think your interpretation of the Bible is the “correct” one, good luck with that. If there were only one way to interpret it, you’d have one church and no need for books and sermons and seminars and everything else we humans use to try to understand and know God. But the operative word here is “interpret.” There is no one way to interpret the Bible. As has been mentioned many times in this discussion, the Bible has been interpreted to justify and support slavery, subjugation of women, and lots more stuff that we eschew today. I have absolutely no doubt that, one day, the church as a whole will be apologizing to and begging forgiveness from gay and lesbian people for the horrendous and unfathomable damage it has done to our relationships, our souls, and our bodies. Unlike you, .I will not claim to know what God wants. I’m not God. All I can do is live my life with integrity, love, and truth. And I will continue to do so as an openly gay, proud man.

          • Dana says:

            The term homosexual wasn’t even added to the Bible until the 20th century. All the books of the Bible have been altered, edited and warped from their original translations. All Christians should research for themselves, instead of blindly following what their religious leaders say.

    • I have dealt with, in detail, all the verses and others that you did not ask about. I would really encourage you to talk the time to read my views in the details I submit. read all of them please. i could not possible do the whole thing together so it is broken into verses which often depend one upon the other.
      I find it interesting that a person will ask if I believe in the Bible when my theology on this differs from theirs. And, my goodness, how could I have not read Sodom and Gomorrah, but I ask back–have YOU and have you read ALL the cross references? Yes, I think God is wild about me and must trust me to do the right thing when HE called me to this and it is a tough one to go forward on. If it were not a calling by the Holy Spirit, I would have fallen already under the attack. Do I think He is pleased with GLBT people—yes, He created them and love all of them and is esp delighted in the ones that follow Him despite the severe pushback from the church. And read what the word natural means in my blog on Romans. Yes, I do believe it is natural—not so to a first century Jew—but to humankind–yes.
      Christians really should study or at least read the other views. God calls those that will not do so fools. PLEASE, give my intelligence a bit of credit and my ability to hear God a bit more credit. Read the blog—PLEASE and then re ask the questions. http://www.canyonwalkerconnections.com
      Thanks for considering Shelinda, appreciated.

      • Love says:

        I’m not being rude but I read all responses to glbt. I have a uncle & two cousins who are gay and God is of love the word is not to be argued and the word became flesh not to be rude but God is not pleased with the conversation because he did definitly give us free will and his word if you choose to justify your sin to satisfy your fleshly desires that is your choice and you will be judged according to that. We will be tempted everyday but the thought and the action is our will. Jesus was tempted but he didn’t try to change the meaning of what God said for sin. God loves us and will not force himself on us you have a choice but he will love you all the way to hell. Each day you have a choice and a chance this thing is spiritual its called deliverance surrendering to Jesus and letting him make that change in you. Or continue to wrestle with the truth but the truth will set you free. Tomorrow is not promised to you Jesus said go on and don’t send NO MORE.

    • Oh, Shelinda, I realized I missed one quick pt you asked–no, God has not changed, BUT we certainly have changed the translations. Be sure to check out my blog post on I Tim and I Cor. The reinventing of words translated since the 50′s and 60′s is nothing less than repulsive to me. We always need an enemy–the enemy for the last few decades has been the GLBT community. Anti- gay sure brings money into the church coffers, the political candidate warchests and conservative missionaries agendas in Uganda. Any movement can exist without a God, but none of them can exist without a devil. PLEASE read my blog, it could be an eyeopener/heart softener.

      • Dana says:

        Kathy, God bless you. I don’t know how you view the story of David and Jonathan, but to me it’s a love story between two men. David even says at Jonathan’s funeral, that he loved him more than any woman. I’m not saying they had a sexual relationship (only they and God know that), but Jonathan’s father (King Saul) seems to suggest it, when he berates Jonathan for the relationship.

        Anyway, I feel they loved each other very, very much.

    • Dana says:

      Shelinda, Jesus himself, addressed the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah…And it wasn’t homosexuality.

      Also in Ezekiel 16:48-50…

      As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

  3. Joanna Goff says:

    In response directly to Kathy’s message, I’ve got to say we sure need more Christians (followers of Christ) who love like you do, Kathy! This world is so harsh on others, people are so judgmental, whether they’re Christians or not. We so need to follow Christ’s example ~ he washed Judas’ feet right before Judas left to betray Him, and Jesus KNEW Judas was leaving to betray Him! Also, God determined it would be the women who were the first to find Christ’s tomb empty. That was a slap in the face to the social trend of that time concerning women. They were considered lower than men, not much more than servants. Now as for Native Americans, I relate there as well. I am Native. We’ve had a rough go of it in the history of the U.S. and mostly by the religious! I think the best answer is, keep listening to the Holy Spirit, for He is Truth. He cannot lie. As we continue to walk with God, we take on His thinking more and more. Taking on the mind of God takes time, willingness, and of course, His input. His timing. What He chooses for us to know. I pray you continue to love homosexuals, the same as you’d love any other sinner (that means EVERYONE), and especially continue to grow in Christ’s love for you as you love others around you. Just one more thing: if my thinking is wrong, God will change my thinking. If yours is, He’ll change yours. It’s up to Him! May you be blessed and beloved, and know how precious you are to Him!

    • Love says:

      As a child it is said that children are cruel as adults it really doesn’t seem to change but what we do know is that we live in a falling world this thing is spiritual the enemy (satan) can transform himself in to anything that seems good to the human eye but when you test the spirit by the spirit the word of God you can decipher what is God and what is not. God created us even if you say there is no God no such thing let nature talk how many gay men have you seen push a baby out of there vagina? How many gay animals do you see if it was normal at all where is the rest of the gay population?

  4. Mudenihc says:

    First of all, do not deceive yourself, Kathy. I do not hate the gay people do not get me wrong, but I dislike what they have decided to do with their bodies. Now as pertains your argument that God made for Adam a woman called Eve and how that does not apply to all men, that right there has shown that you did not read the whole of Genesis 2, because if you did, you would have seen where it says, ” And the Lord God said, ” It is not good that man should be alone; I will make a HELPER comparable to him” (Genesis 2:18 NKJV). You said that God could not have started the world with two gay couples as though God’s sole purpose for making Adam and Eve was for them to have sex. As you can see, God’s initial purpose for making woman was to be a HELPER not a baby-making machine. So yes God could have started the world with to gay couples, if he wanted but he chose not to. Secondly, if you read further down to verse 24 of Genesis 2, you will find that it says, “Therefore a MAN (not THE man–Adam) shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. You added a whole lot of things to the Bible that is not even written in it. If you referred to being gay as it is referred to in the Bible, but went on to admonish us not to “discriminate” and said something along the lines of how we hang around people that lie all the time, swear, mock God and the likes, and we have respect for them, then why should we think less of the gay, that would have made a lot of sense. NOT ADDING TO THE BIBLE!

    • Dana says:

      Sorry Mudenihc, but I don’t believe God would have made Eve to be a “helper” to Adam…I do believe she was meant to be a companion…This “helper” term sounds more like saying God made Eve to be Adam’s servant (which is probably because men wrote most of the Bible and men of the time saw women as inferior and as property).

  5. Mudenihc says:

    Kathy, I do appreciate the fact that you are preaching LOVE but I do not appreciate the fact that you have to twist the word of God to do that. Jesus preached love, he lived in love and acted out of love but he never twisted the words in the old testament to do so, not to my knowledge. In fact, Jesus ate with tax collectors, thieves, prostitutes and I bet homosexuals and according to Mark 3:33-34, he referred to them as his mother and brothers! Now does that mean that Jesus loved what these people did? NO. As a matter a fact he brought hope to them and I can recall Jesus saying to the Pharisees how the healthy does not need a Doctor but the sick. Jesus after saving the woman to be stoned to death for prostitution said to her “Go and sin NO MORE”.

  6. Luke Overbeek says:

    Kathy,
    Holding your life to a very “high” standard of moral excellence is irrelevant. Being a “reputable Christian” even less so. The real issue is repentance, grace, repentance, grace, repentance, grace. Martin Luther posted on the Wittenburg door, the introduction to his ninety five theses, “All a Christian’s life is one of repentance.” I believe that just as pride is a sin, so is homosexuality, so is lust and any sexual sin, so is greed, and many many other things.

    I don’t think the words, “I don’t agree with that lifestyle,” should be the breaking point for a solid friendship. Evangelism must be built on relationship, and any relationship that does not withstand the casual truth of timely confrontation is not a very solid relationship at all. For me, I know homosexuals who esteem me as a friend. I have fully and honestly shared my theology on homosexuality, told them that it is a sin and that I believe repentance is necessary, but have done so in a way that showed them that I value them as people and I respect them for their beliefs, and also that I am willing to stand with them as a friend regardless of their choices. I do not condemn others – God is the judge, and he will judge, but I cannot take that throne. But I speak the truth in love and gentleness of spirit, which is much less harmful than saying simply, “homosexuality is not a sin.”

  7. Heather says:

    Oh my goodness. how patronizing and pious are all you people. Quit saying that just because you respect and love homosexual people that is enough. Love the sinner hate the sin. it is NOT enough. And quit using God as your own personal backup for your prejudiced and bigoted views. Lets see what else the Christian church almost universally believed and acted upon in the name of ‘Christ’ over the past few hundred years, which are now indefensible.
    Slavery
    Racism
    Child Labour
    Corporal Punishment
    Execution and Witch Burning
    All these things were once ‘defended’ by the same God you use to defend your heterosexist prejudices. How, now, will we account for “God” upholding these things which have been well and truly eschewed by the Church?
    Biblical interpretation (sorry, “apologetics”) are not static. It is constantly changing and relative to the culture and time.
    Further, how many things in the old testament would we now insist are wrong, such as polygamy, slavery (again), rape and pillage, and so on. And what things that were ‘abominable’ like eating shellfish and wearing mixed fibres, do we disregard?
    God is not your own personal mascot for team bigotry. Jesus did not consort with the moral majority.
    In fact, When Jesus talks about the last judgement, Joanna, the people who are rejected are not the weak, dispossessed and marginalized, but the people who claimed to love him, but did not act accordingly. Think about that, and perhaps you might get a reality check on exactly who is coming up for judgement here.

    • Luke Overbeek says:

      The church does not always accurately reflect God, so when you see issues with “christians”, don’t generalize. It’s way too easy to put people in a group and stereotype them.

      I love the sin, hate the sinner. Just as I would love a person involved with witchcraft, but hate the witchcraft, just as I would love a person who is a liar, but hate the fact that they lie. All sin is equal in the sight of God, but everyone is responsible to the conviction of the holy spirit and if they deny that what they are doing is sin, they are not repentant. It isn’t a matter of “gay people go to hell.” All UNREPENTANT SINNERS do! And that is a lot of people, I’m afraid, because North American culture advocates pride, human rights, pride, and more pride.

      • Esther says:

        Hate the sin, love the sinner…

        any idea how much I’ve heard that one?
        Any idea how tiring it is to hear that one?

        Just amagine anything which you think is really unseperately part of you…
        and people hating that… not you… but repeatedly keep on telling you…
        and again and again… but really they are looking @ you/seeing you & loving you.
        You know what? It doesn’t come across…

        People have told me that I could no longer do the things I love to do. That they see the talent God has given me and the annointing in certain erea’s…
        but I’m still welcome.

        I

        • Esther says:

          So why don’t I feel welcome?

          Why do I feel tolerated?

          One of the things people are proud of… coz they also could have thrown out of church.
          (as some former church people thought was appropriate)

          To be tolerated instead of love.
          That your presence is beared instead of wanted.
          I can tell you is energy sucking and horror.
          This thing brought tears to my eyes:
          http://naytinalbert.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-hugged-man-in-his-underwear-and-i-am.html
          It’s not ‘pro’ or ‘against’… but there’s unmistakable love in this action. Bless, Es.

  8. A great book on pro-gay theology is A Gay Gospel? By Joe Dallas: http://www.exodusbooks.org.

  9. Kate Wilson says:

    I believe that the Bible is the Word of God. It is completely perfect and I will not argue against it. I think there are two extreme views in this conversation, and neither view is perfect. First, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). All have sinned, homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. We must repent for our sins and accept Christ and His glory to be saved. It is only through Him that we are saved. Definition of repent:
    –verb (used without object)
    1.
    to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of ): He repented after his thoughtless act.
    2.
    to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one’s life for the better; be penitent.

    If a person is truly repenting in their heart from sin, they will cast aside that sin to follow God. That does not mean they won’t still have temptations of that sin, but they will set it aside to follow God’s will. This means a homosexual person can repent from their sin and be saved. However, the same applies to a straight person who is having sex outside of marriage. Homosexual fornication is the same in God’s eyes as heterosexual fornication, because all sin is the same (“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” -James 2:10). So, a straight person who repents and accepts Christ is saved, and a gay person who repents and accepts Christ is saved. True repentance means, though, that whether the person was gay or straight, they would discontinue their sin.
    The other extreme being presented here seems to be that it is just fine and dandy to be gay and claim to follow the Lord. Not so, because if one is truly a Christian, they will be born again (Jesus said “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” -John 3:5-7). If a person is truly born again, they will stop following their own will and follow the Lord.
    If a person is gay, that alone is not why they will go to hell. ANY unrepentant, unsaved sinner will go to hell. Gay or straight. Unfortunately, Kathy is sadly being mislead. She is accepting ways of this world. Those who belong to the Lord are in this world, but not of it. True Christians do not blend in. I will pray for you to see the truths in the Bible.

    • Mudenihc says:

      THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT COMMENT! You truly know what you are talking about. As for Kathy, all one can do is pray that she sees where she has erred.

    • Dana says:

      Kate, the Bible is NOT perfect, it was written by imperfect men, translated by imperfect men and edited by imperfect men.

      You must never blindly accept everything the Bible tells you to, God gave you a brain…use it.

    • ely says:

      excellent points. i couldn’t agree with you more. this video only “clouds” the very clear points made in the bible, of which you have named very honesty, out of LOVE, for ppls souls, NOT to go to hell. that’s real love, not just going along w/ what someone else’s says, or accepting their sin, w/ a “gray” and thus useless watered down faith, that does no one any favors.

      you have to tell the entire TRUTH, otherwise, it’s not really an act of LOVING that other person. if not, it’s withholding partial truths, that can actually damn that person’s soul to hell Forever!!! and there is no getting out. so, THANK YOU, for stating the entire Truth, for the salvation of souls.

      Only through accepting and actively following Jesus Christ, every day of your life, can one be saved, go to Heaven, and LIVE forever, in true peace, love, joy, happiness, with God, forever.

  10. Jason says:

    I understand the view of love towards the homosexual community. But it is not a reason to give in. Scripture clearly states that it is a sin. No doubt about that. Anyone who disagrees doesn’t read a Bible. I work with two gay people and we have great conversations about the Bible and witnessing to them can be tough. Show that you care just Like God cares for them is the key. I am a sinner just as much as they are! I struggle with other things. I am a sinner SAVED by the GRACE of GOD through JESUS CHRIST through FAITH!!!!!! The other key to a gay person coming to Christ is also repentance. Its not easy. But it is what James talks about. Faith without works is death. If our Faith doesn’t show change and living for God then we need to reevaluate our walk with Christ. I will continue to show love towards the people in gay community but not love towards the sin.

    • Dan Kaufman says:

      Wow–your gay “friends” (with a friend like you, who needs enemies?) get their very own private witness. Did they even ask you to be one for them? You should probably ask them if they could use some help with their laundry or shopping–you’d be helping them out a lot more. I’d love a personal assistant myself.

      Scripture clearly states lots of things. It’s pretty murky on lots more things. Why this obsession with homosexuality, when you could be stoning adulterers with the same vehemence?

      • Jason says:

        Dan, do you believe that the Bible is Gods Word? I am just the messenger. If you have a problem with what Gods word says, then have it up with Him. People are way to tense when it comes to the subject and its quite annoying. It seems that its those that believe in Christ and preach what he says, that end up getting attacked. ALOT more than the homosexual population. I only state what scripture says. It says that homosexual behavior is a sin. In multiple areas, old and new testament. It also defines marriage. which even if there were no verses about homosexual behavior, then that alone would be sufficient evidence. Look, this is obviously not a debate forum, but with the comment you left, had to say something. Take care.

        • Dan Kaufman says:

          It’s your interpretation that I have a problem with. You feel some primal need to tell other people how to live their lives, and state your patronizing displeasure based on your interpretation of what the Bible says. If you want to live your life exactly according to the Bible (good luck with that, by the way–the inconsistencies alone will drive you up the wall), then go for it. Live your life the way you want to. All I ask–all any of us asks–is that we be left alone to live our lives the way WE want to. Is that too much to ask?

          • Luke Overbeek says:

            Who exactly is disturbing your peace? Are there people coming to your door, the “anti-gay witnesses”? Are there people on the bus telling you that they don’t like the way you look, or that they disagree with your style of dress? Are people calling you on the phone and calling you faggot? Nobody is doing these things. You said, “All I ask, all any of us asks, is that we be left alone to live our lives the way WE want to.” I’ll ask again for emphasis: Who is disturbing your peace against your will? If you don’t want to read these comments, then don’t read them!
            Here’s the thing, Dan Kaufman: You’re being antagonistic, and it’s not necessary. It just makes you look immature. People, especially Christians, are going to say things here and there that offend you. You’re going to be hurt in this life – that’s life. But YOU are the one who’s on this comment thread, reading, replying, reading, replying. You say you want to be left alone? Then don’t bother with these threads. Simple. Have a fun life, and do exactly what you want.
            Many Blessings,
            Luke.

          • Jason says:

            Dan, there is no deep interpretation when it comes to the verses that explain what i am talking about. There are no two ways it can be interpreted. it really is what it says. Sorry if that offends you. We are asked to live our lives according to the scriptures. Easy? absolutely not. That is why Jesus died for our sins. We are saved by grace through Faith in the Son. He knows we cant possibly live up to His standard, but why not try? There are areas where I struggle everyday. I am guilty on many accounts. I am…I simply state that homosexuality is a sin. As are many things in the Bible. I only try to encourage people to not sin. I am not here to hate or be against people that are gay. And I understand that it may leave you angry. When there is something that you strongly believe is ok (homosexuality) of course its going to make you angry when someone tells you its wrong. That can go for many things. hang in there Dan. Take care.

  11. Dan Kaufman says:

    Luke and Jason: First of all, I’m Jewish. So although I recognize Jesus as an historical figure, I don’t personally believe him to be my messiah. Sorry. And there are people of other religions and no religion who read and respond to this forum–and who are Americans as well. And maybe that’s the crux of this whole thing. It’s these attitudes that “I know how you should live your life and I’m going to do all I can to make sure you do” that disturb me. It’s what allows “debates” like the one over same-sex marriage. There shouldn’t be any debate. We live in America. We should all have the same rights, whether we’re straight or gay. Period. End of story. No debate. But people bring their own religious biases into it, and use their interpretation to justify denying people the right to live their lives as they see fit. They try to pass laws to regulate sexual and emotional behavior. People can say anything they want, Luke. It’s when they try to control how I live my life that I get really, really concerned.

    Jason, I don’t know how you can say the Bible can’t be interpreted different ways. The Bible is always interpreted. It’s been interpreted to justify slavery and the subjugation of women, and all sorts of horrors. If it weren’t open to interpretation, you wouldn’t have thousands of preachers in lots of different denominations telling you their take on things every Sunday. You wouldn’t have the Westboro Baptist Church using the SAME bible you’re using, telling us that God Hates Fags. And you wouldn’t have reconciling congregations welcoming gay and lesbian parishioners, who ALSO use the same Bible. You may think your interpretation is the only one, and it’s your prerogative to do so. But it’s a pretty naive stance to take.

  12. hopeful says:

    You are taking what one church has done and steriotyping all christians to be the
    same way. And this is America, you are right. And a country Im proud of. And it was built on the foundation of Christ and the Bible. One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for ALL. Where is our right to raise our children in the same God fearing country that our parents did? It seems to me that everyone wants to live here because it is such a great country and all they want to do is change it. I do believe in the Bible and there are going to be many interpratations of it, I thank God for enough sense to know what is right and not. He said my sheep will know my voice. And that many will be decieved. He also gave signs to look for in knowing that his coming is soon and the signs are becoming more and more appearant and close. no one knows the hour or the day. There are many intellagant people that can not understand the Bible because they are trying to make it black and white and 2 plus 2 is 4. God does not speak that way. It is about faith and trust in him and seeking him with your whole heart and mind. If you would read his word and pray to him and seek to know him. truely know him he will show you the way, the truth and the light. we are only here a short time. dont let your flesh determine who you are.

    • Dan Kaufman says:

      No, I’m pointing out that different churches interpret the Bible differently. I never said all Christians are the same. I do, however, hear that all gay people are the same–over and over in this forum. It’s stunning, actually. Just listen to what leaders of Focus on the Family or National Organization for Marriage, or any number of organizations say about gay people: to them, we’re one monolithic, unchanging, evil lot that’s out to destroy the land. Darn it if I didn’t get the memo from the Gay Supreme Leader. Maybe she misplaced my email address.

      You are right, hopeful: God is not black & white. And trying to know what God means–exactly, without question or waivering–is an impossible task. So, since I can’t speak for God or God’s intentions, I choose to live my life openly and proudly as a Gay Jew, leaving this world as much as possible a little bit better than when I came into it. That’s my standard for living a good life.

      • Frances says:

        “Darn it if I didn’t get the memo from the Gay Supreme Leader. Maybe she misplaced my email address.”

        LMAO!!!

        Actually, in your defense Dan, you are absolutely right that there is a reason why we have 106 different denominations of Christianity that all have a different hermeneutic (interpretation) of the Bible. Why so many denominations, if we can all be painted with the same wide brush? I went to Fuller Theological Seminary, only to argue and debate with 650 classmates of Christians who disagreed widely on both justification theology and sanctification theology. No one had the corner on the Bible or the Gospel. It humbled me to see that no one particular group had all the answers. God is paradoxical and complex, and many Christians love to put him in a box. Keep up the good work Dan and know that there are progressive Christians who understand the concept of biblical hermeneutics and in fact there are reputable communities and seminaries where the whole concept of hermeneutics is nuanced and thoroughly explored and appreciated.

        I have learned, Dan, it is pointless to argue with someone who has a completely different biblical hermeneutic than you. Fuller does not believe in the doctrine of inerrancy. They still teach the Bible is authoritative, and infallible (loosely defined as it does not fail to teach us about the nature and existence of God). Many of the Christians who think homosexuality is sin have neither studied gender and sexuality in any depth, nor do they understand their own biblical hermeneutic. No doubt they believe in the doctrine of inerrancy. Too bad. They are legalists and will NEVER accept any other worldview except for their own.

        Additionally, this country was not founded on Christian principles. The God on our dollar bills was based on Deism, not Christianity. Thomas Jefferson had his own version of the Bible – the Jeffersonian Bible – that threw out anything having to do with miracles and so on. But many inerrantists will continue to say that the US was founded on Christianity and object to same-sex marriage because of it. This is a gross mistake. Separation of church and state (The First Ammendment) is there to protect BOTH church and state.

        By the way, the Genesis 2 couple was also vegetarian, extremely healthy, tree-climbing, naked types. Traditional marriage today looks NOTHING like that. Just saying.

        Blessings to you.

        Frances

  13. hopeful says:

    unfortunatly living your life as a good person will not get you into heaven. Or leaving the world a better place than the way you entered it will. God does not need us to do anything for him. If he wants it done he can command the rock to do it. It is not immpossible or even difficult to understand Gods word. But until you deny yourself and pick up the cross you will not understand it. you are not trying to truely understand God. you are trying to learn his word the way you would learn the history of the korean war. To understand his word you must have a spiritual relationship with him. He speaks to your heart(my sheep will know my voice), you must deny yourself of fleshy, worldly things and wisdom, and seek him with your whole being.
    I certainly dont mean any offense to you either. I do have gay friends. I love them dearly. I also have friends that drink in access, smoke, have sexual relations with or without the same sex out of wedlock, and the list goes on… I think you are taking what a few select ppl are saying and getting offended by it and stereotyping america that way. I dont think that people of the same sex need to live their lives in public for all to see no more than I think that people should commit adualtry in the open or have affairs or walk the streets drunk, or walk around naked. Just because you choose to live your life this way does not mean that the rest of the world should conform to it. Noone has said you can not be gay. you have the freedom to do that, just the majority of the world does not believe it is the way it is intented to be. There is coming a day very soon where it will be openely accepted to walk the streets as a gay person. It still does not make it right. Its all very biblical indeed. God said this would happen. I do so truely care for you. I have a very soft heart for peoples feelings. I have my whole life. I come from a very small town. population 99 and black people and gay people are not welcomed. It is back woods and country as you get. I am related to the majority of the people in this town. I was taught that if you dont live your life to a certain standard and you are not white that you are worthless. It is sad how some people think. I was scared to death of black people until I was about 29. and when I seen or thought of a gay person all I thought about was the sexual side of that person. I thank God for opening my eyes. I dont struggle with the same things you struggle with. But I have plenty of struggles my self. I did go threw a period in my life where I was not sure if I wanted to have gay relations or not. I have stolen before and even commited adulty. I use to smoke, drink and do drugs when I was a young teen and mid 20′s. I have not over come all my sin and I doubt I will before the end. but I know the difference between right and wrong threw Gods spirit and I pray the he quickens me each time I sin and I have the stength to not do so. I stopped smoking 13 years ago along with any form of drug. I was an active member of church for a few years. I felt and seen things that if you would have told me about them before I would have told you that you were crazy. But the Bible says there comes a time when you are allowed to be tested. my greatest weekness is being alone. so I was tempted in many ways with men. I eventually married although It was not Gods will for my life and I knew that. my life has never been the same. I continue to fight for my christian walk and a relationship with God. He never changed and never moved. But I did. you see sin seperaes us from God. He is the same Holy creator, and he is there for us at all times, his spirit calls to us. but when we choose sin we seperate ourselves from him because he is holy and of no sin. All I have to do and All anyone has to do is turn from their sin and repent and walk into the glory of God. My talk of God is not just something I believe and could never be taught by man. there came a day in my life when the calling of God was so strong and unexpected and needed that I raised my hands to heaven and surendered my life to him. After that it did not matter what I wanted anymore, only what he wanted for me. My life was whole for the first time ever. I didnt miss the things of this world that I thought I had to have to complete my life. all I needed was him. If you first seek him and the kingdom all things will be added unto you. Dan, Im not trying to preach from the bible and Im not trying to tell you how to live your life. Just that the God I know can make your life everything you want it to be. All we all want inside is just complete contentness. God can give that to you. He wants to give that to you. Its not a gay thing. Its not about being proud and open. Its about denying the things of the flesh and seeking the creator. He will guide you from there. He says to come to him just as you are. Come to him as a proud gay jew. Tell him you only want to know him and know his will for your life. Tell him and be willing to set aside any part of your life that is not what he wants for you. seek him in every way every minute of every day. focus on him. He will set you free of any bondage you have or any that he wants you set free of. Just trust him. It doesnt matter what anyone says. He doesnt need anything or anyone to do this for you Dan, only your willingness. you dont have to attend any church to meet the one I call God. You just need to have a open heart and seek to know him. Godbless and good luck to all.

  14. Dan Kaufman says:

    You and I have very, VERY different ideas of who/what God is. We’re going to have to leave it at that.

  15. Frances says:

    Yay Kathy Baldock! You are awesome. I graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary this year and my worldview has completely changed. I no longer see homosexuality as sin, and plan to read all the liberative books that were recommended in this thread (working on a book of my own). Trust that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, as me, and many other progressive, inclusive Christians who attend Fuller and the Graduate Theological Union and other progressive evangelical seminaries and communities. Keep up the good work. One day, I have the hope that our children will be completely surprised by the ignorance of “social slavery,” much like our generation is repulsed by the notion of institutional slavery. God bless.

  16. Ryan says:

    I viewed Adam Hood an ex-gay on youtube, calling homosexuality an abomination and was directed to this website. I love what he has accomplished and his righteous attutide toward it. I’ve struggled with gay emotions all my life and this year i have been able to be ex-gay. Human imperfection is not an excuse for the practice although it is a fight, you can win it like apostle Paul with Sin’s law warring against him. Either in this system or the next I hope to find a lovely wife and be able to procreate. I’m a follower of God’s Word, I’m A Jehovah’s Witness!

  17. Mudenihc says:

    Psalm 53:1 – Foolish people say in their hearts, “there is no God”. They do all kinds of horrible and evil things. No one does anything good.

  18. Ryan says:

    Totally out of context. Perhaps that so called gay jesus heals changed on accepting the Messiah. jesus reads hearts. What is wrong with being soft anyway? Bye.

  19. Ryan says:

    MUDENIHC GO TO WATCHTOWER.ORG soon a great crowd of good people will inherit an eciting eternal perfect life earth, soon false religion will be destryed by the governments world wide then the governments themselves.

  20. Hannah Schroeder says:

    Gosh, it makes me so glad to hear that at least SOMEONE has got it right. The Bible is crystal clear, right? That’s got to be why there are so many different denominations and branches of christianity. It is just amazing to me that someone could be so right and so sure about God. I know I never could claim to know the plans or purposes of someone/something acclaimed to be so all-powerful, all-knowing, and enigmatic as God. I must not be doing this Jesus thing right. But hey, if that’s what it’s like for you, more power to you.

    First, I must state that I agree whole heartedly with Kathy, and I know at least one person is going to have to “correct” my point of view and I don’t care. Go ahead and try to make me and anyone else, whose opinion differs from yours, look like a fool. It’s your own time and energy that you’re wasting.

    If you want to be like Jesus, show love and compassion; don’t sit at home on your computer for hours waiting for the next reply to your comment just so you can prove everyone else wrong. This is a game that you choose to play. Loving someone isn’t telling them “I’m sure you’re nice and all, but you’re still going to burn in hell on judgment day”, no matter if you’re saying this to someone who is gay or supports gays.

    Maybe instead of fretting over every single nit-picky detail of an epic poem that is a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of what someone else heard God/Jesus say, people should focus on the main point – Love. People waste so much time talking about what Jesus said and what they believe he stood for that they don’t have time to live and do Jesus’s ultimate message.

    Action talks and bullshit walks. Pardon the expletive. Was that uncalled for? Most likely. But at least it’s more straightforward than saying “God bless you” or “Jesus loves you” when you know in your heart that love and kindness are not the intentions behind your words.

  21. Paige says:

    Yo, Kathy!

    I was in a pretty dark place when I saw this video for the first time. I was angry at God for calling homosexuality an “abomination” and the way the gay community was being treated by Christians. I was totally afraid of God, and was determined not to come back to Him out of fear for the upteenth time. But then I came across this video, and my perspective started changing. When you mentioned Jesus, I held my breath. And when I found out what He had done for that Centurion, I felt this HUGE wave of relief wash over me…and yeah, then I cried. Happy, happy tears, though. And I was even HAPPIER when I was able to varify your story through all sources!

    I’ve been following your blog ever since, and I love what you have to say. Keep writing, Kathy. You’re doing a really good thing here. I’m just feeling the lurve!

  22. Paige says:

    Oops, I accidentally wrote ALL sources! I meant OTHER sources. Geez…

  23. Jean says:

    Hi Kathy! One point that you made in the video is bothering me. You said your friend commented that she is the lowest of the low because she is Native American, a woman and a lesbian and that not even God loves her. I believe you were saying that this was the trigger that changed your mind about whether homosexuality was a sin or not because you wondered if this could be true. But the Bible says that God is love and that He demonstrates His love for us in this: that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (see Romans 5:8) So the inference that God doesn’t love her because of homosexuality whether it is a sin or not is mistaken,just as believing that God doesn’t love someone because they are Native American would be mistaken. So whether homosexuality is a sin or not and whether God loves a person or not are two completely different issues. I think this is an extremely important point to remember in the discussion. God loves us as sinners but that does not change what is sin or is not sin.

  24. Adesina Babatunde says:

    Hi Kathy,

    I have seen both of your videos and I can tell that you have a heart for gay people (both male and female). I would not really say a lot but the little I will say is,

    Firstly can you please refer me to the passage that you mentioned about Jesus being confronted with homosexual relationship.

    Secondly, we all need to be careful as to how we interpret scripture becuase, how hearts is wicked and deceitful; we should not take God’s word and make it fit into the way we feel or think. We’re meant to fit our life and feels to God’s word and standard.

    So all I’m saying is, Jesus died to save mankind from our sins and truth be told homosexuality is a sin and the bible clearly says God is angry with the wicked everyday. God is not for sin (not just homosexual) but all types of sin. God’s standards are not man’s. So it do not matter how we feel, it is what God has said in His word that will count on the day of judgment. I know you said you have been a christian for 25 years, but please go back and study the scripture under the light of the Holy Spirit becuase we all make mistakes and we will continue to make mistake until we pass away or until Jesus returns the second time.
    Reaching out to the gay community is very good and I don’t believe you are doing anything wrong Jesus died so that anyone who believes in Him will not perish. The message preached though has to be God inspired.

    God bless.

  25. Jonathan A says:

    Thank you Kathy for your heart warming words. This is the first time I have heard this from a Christian. The stories you have heard, I also heard from many men and women in Sweden. The church means a lot for many people. We are not all secular but want to deal with life issues from a religious way of life. I could have told you my story, but I will try to find your website or e-mail, so I’ll keep in touch. Thank you.

  26. AC says:

    Romans 1:26–28
    26 For this reason aGod gave them over to bdegrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is 1unnatural,
    27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, amen with men committing 1indecent acts and receiving in 2their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    28 And just as they did not see fit 1to acknowledge God any longer, aGod gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

  27. AC says:

    Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God who created Adam, a man, and then made Eve, a woman. This is what God has ordained as the normal means by which we carry out his command to fill the earth (Gen. 1:28). What God has set up is what is right — not what sinful man sets up.

  28. paige says:

    Kathy – you are so gentle and kind. Please know that the Bible (God’s handbook to us) tells us the BEHAVIOR is immoral. Not the person. God loves your friend. But this is Satan’s world, and he is trying to prevent as many as possible from seeing the Good News or the sacred secret.
    Did you know that nowhere in the Bible does it say that we will suffer indefinitely in hell. Nor does it say we will go to heaven. Heaven is a place where God’s government is administered. You should read the Bible intently. On homosexuality, please look at the following scriptures:1) 1 Corinthians 6:9
    “men who lie with men” will not inherit God’s Kingdom

    2) Romans 1:26, 27

    3) 1 Thessalonians 4:3

    4) Hebrews 13:4

    5) Jude 7

    6) Ga 5: 19-21

    7) Colossians 3:5

    From seven scriptures it is abundantly clear that homosexuality is not permitted by God and that those who practice it will not inherit God’s Kingdom. (In addition, the Bible describes marriage as being between a man and a woman.) The pain that you’re feeling is from living in a fallen world, in Satan’s system.
    Please investigate for yourself. You just need 3 things to find the Truth: Humility, Honesty, Hunger (for the truth).

    • Dan Kaufman says:

      1 Corinthians 14:34

      Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.

      If you’re going to quote scripture and follow your interpretation to the letter, please make sure you follow the passages that apply to you as well, Paige. I’m only quoting the Bible, and since it says it so plainly and clearly, I think it’s pretty clear what you need to do now: Repent for your sin of going against what the Bible says.

  29. Benjamin Ady says:

    Craig,

    I still want you to be more explicit about your plans with regards this website, even in the short term =).

  30. shelley says:

    much love to you kathy. i know that unshakable feeling that you have in your heart. i only hope and pray for you now that you continue to allow the voice of love to be the loudest in your life. because there will be many, many unloving voices.

  31. Nichole says:

    The video made me curious to hear you out….
    Though it seems your heart is in the right place in wanting to help the homosexual community. However, I too question this help. From my understanding of scripture and the holy spirit transforming my own life, (I used to dabble in LOTS of immorality, drinking you name it!) The Lord entered my life and I am a NEW creation by God’s grace.
    I am not who I once was. This is the entire point of following Jesus and allowing the holy spirit to transform us from the inside out.

    Therefore, there are two problems one must come face to face with IF you are a saved Christian and have changed your views on homosexuality:
    1. We are all sinners, born in this by birth-not necessarily gay, there is no gay gene-it has been proven and even testimonies of gay folks saying this is a clear mature choice. Any form of lust or unnatural way of sexuality must be repented of and ultimately, reconciled. Simple biology teaches us why this does not fit the formula of God’s original design.
    2. Whether one chooses the gay lifestyle or not, they are still in sin if they have not repented and are not regenerated through the holy spirit. If they have those urges, they are not to act on them… just like one would have the power to avoid falling into any other form of temptation or sin… we know there are many.

    So…. while it is noble to love our neighbors, as we’re certainly called to. Your choice to twist what we know is in scripture, is harmful knowing all of scripture and what God does say about sin in general and yes, homosexuality too (do I need to pull the verses for you?), I believe it is unwise NOT to show them how Jesus can transform their depravity, behaviors to the natural order of things. I am fearful you have allowed your feelings and emotions to overrule the Word of God and the moral code that is there for our protection. The Lord wants us to love Him MORE than we love ourselves, we are to lay down our wills, our desires for His.

    Love tells the truth even at the cost of relationships. Look deeply at Jesus’ life when He was on earth, many still turned away from Him because the Gospel offends those who are perishing (1 Cor. 1:18) and is there to break our sin-bent wills to bring us to full regeneration in utter submission and obedience. I pray the Lord would speak to your heart on this issue more deeply and that you would respond to His leading, not your own and begin to pray for their souls rather than support a lifestyle that keeps them in deception and sin. We will all be accountable what we did with the Word of God. If you know the truth, we need to share it in love and warning, just as Jesus did.
    Thanks for hearing my point of view. God bless!

  32. Luke says:

    It’s important to remember that culture always has (and always will have) a huge impact on how the Bible is read and understood. For example, Luke 16:18 says “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” I’m curious, for the people in this thread who say that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says it is, how many people in your church are on their second marriage? If you know people who have been married, divorced and remarried, would you confront them and tell them they are in sin because they’re committing adultery? Would you tell them they don’t belong in the church? Would you tell them the Bible says they need to divorce their partners and remarry their original partners? Would you tell them they are at risk of going to hell? Why would you do this to homosexuals and not to remarried couples?

    • Nichole says:

      To Luke’s response above. I have been remarried. Yes, I committed “adultery” in that sense and have answered to God for that matter and now FORGIVEN because I got right before the LORD as ANYONE can, even homosexuals and walk in obedience from point of true conversion. You are judging remarrieds for some reason or comparing the two scenarios and it would ONLY apply if the divorcees were already Christians/yes, that is delicate matter and questionable indeed. However, I was NOT a born-again Christian during my first marriage, neither was my former husband. I have since repented and moved on as we all do with ANY sins we commit, so ease up on that condemnation. Jesus has already paid that price for us.

      Homosexuality in EVERY scenario, circumstance in scripture is pointed out as sin, abominable, depraved, reprobate etc…. only the holy spirit can cleanse one from sin to become born-again which is what happened to me, praise GOD.

      If you read my initial comment above you might understand my comments. *and to your questions you have highlighted at the end of your comment: ALL are welcome in the house of GOD, its for sinners who need JESUS period. The new covenant gives us the ABILITY through the holy spirit to RESIST all temptations, turn from sin and walk obediently with the LORD. When one does this, they will see their sin for what it is and turn willingly if they love the LORD and what to please and honor Him.

      God bless.

  33. Katrina says:

    2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

  34. Shaleya says:

    Can we agree that God created a world by design, a world where plants and animals of all species are able to reproduce so that life is sustained across all habitats and ecosystems accordingly? If so, can we then look at the anatomical parts of animals and plants and note the beauty and intricacy of form and function created in each by God? If we can agree on this, can we take the next step and ponder the sex act between two men, the act of placing a male penis into the anus of another man; the anus has one function, and that is related to waste removal. The pleasure of this act is just that: pleasure. It is man-made, not God-designed. If we believe in God, and in His plan, this act counters all of natures laws, the laws He created.
    We can love one another without poking each other’s privates, yes? When we pay attention to His lessons and His creation, which is sublimely recorded on the physical Earth and in the living Word of His Holy Bible, we can clearly see that humans do indeed act as little children, trying to bend rules to get their own way even as a loving parent looks on with patience and grace, standing nearby to catch them when they fall.

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